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"Fancy thinking the Beast was something you could hunt and kill" (143)!
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- Please post your response for chapter 12
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- LORD OF THE FLIES Reader Response Journal
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106 comments:
What importance does the snake-like beast the little kid brought up have in the story? On page 36, Ralph says, "You couldn't have a beastie, a snake-thing, on an island this size... You only get them in big countries, like Africa, or India." Why does Ralph say this?
richard: it helps the author show us Ralph's leadership skills. Ralph says that to comfort the kids and tell them not to worry.
What does it mean when they say "wacco", "bong", and "doink"? Do they have meanings? Or are they just random noises they make? (p. 33)
Tereasa: You didn't answer my first question :P
I think wacco, bong, and doink are the expressions that those kids use to express their happiness and excitement like what we use today, "yay".I think the words don't really have much meaning. They also made these types of sounds on page 28, after a giant boulder fell from a mountain into the forest canopy. Page 28:
"Wacco!"
"Like a bomb!"
"Whee-aa-oo!"
Not for five minutes could they drag themselves away from this triumph.
In the last sentence the word triumph tells us what the kids are making those sounds for.
Tereasa : I have the same thought as Richard. I think the author uses those words to describe the excitement of the children.
On page 45, Jack says,"You're always scared. Yah - Fatty!"
Why everyone has a prejudice against Piggy? It is just because of his physical appearence, or is there any other reason?
Haley: I think there are many reasons-he's not as fit, he's fatter, he's reasonable while everyone else is savage. For all these reasons, he is different, and therefore rejected.
WARNING: Long response follows.
"I got the conch! Just you listen! The first thing we ought to have made was shelters down there by the beach. It was'nt half cold down there in the night. But the first time Ralph says 'fire' you goes howling and screaming up this here mountain. Like a pack of kids!"
This quote shows how Piggy is actually the most reasonable of all the kids on the island. He realizes the dangers this island has and wants to figure out a way to avoid them and survive. However, he is ignored, and even the conch, a supposed sign of power, is dismissed by Jack when he says, "The conch doesn't count on top of the mountain."
Piggy's logical sense is only allowed to be shown when the other boys are too shocked to interrupt him. For example, right after the boys inadvertently set fire to the island, Piggy makes the sarcastic comment, "You got your small fire all right," which is followed by his strong, angry opinion at the top of this page. However, despite the other boys' rejection of him, he is still considered a scapegoat. As an example, after the little boy with the mulberry-colored birthmark disappears, Ralph angrily tells Piggy, "I told you to get a list of names!" Piggy protests, but the others still turn against him in their frustration and anger.
Piggy is obviously upset by how he is pushed away due to not being as physically fit as the other boys. He comments to Ralph, "If I say anything, you say shut up; but if Jack or Maurice or Simon-" Although his opinions are often better, Ralph prefers to listen to his physical equals. Because of this rejection, Piggy grows distant and upset at all his companions, perhaps even looking down at them for their childishness.
Richard:
I think that the importance of the snake-like beast is that it symbolizes the fear of the littleuns. When Ralph told the assembly that the boy with the birthmark was only dreaming, the littleuns wanted to hear doubt rather than rational assurance. This fear may let the litteuns feel uneasiness around the island and they probably will be afraid to go to certain places. It’s like watching a horror movie and frightened to go certain places after you watch it.
Ralph kept denying the existence of the snake-thing because he wants to let everyone feel safeness on the island and be optimistic. If everyone becomes frightened of the existence of the snake-thing, they wouldn’t have hope to continue to live on and they would just commit suicide. That’s why after the small boy mentioned the beastie, Ralph tried to change the subject. He talked about how his father was in the Navy and he said, “So you see, sooner or later, we shall be rescued.” The assembly immediately felt safety by his words.
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What is the significance of the conch shell? What is the author trying to show with the conch? Ralph said on page 33, “I’ll give the conch to the next person to speak…” Does the conch help govern the assembly? Will the assembly listen to the rules?
Tereasa: I think those words are more like how "whoa!" or "oh my!" are used these days. Also, I think Golding's use of different expressions of surprise for each boy signifies how they are all different.
Jack, still playing a big role in the story, seems to be obsessed with killing a pig, always repeating, “We want meat.” He is so caught up in his quest to kill a pig, he even forgot about getting rescued off the island for a moment. When the smoke from the boys’ signal fire became thicker, all he could think about were strategies to capture a pig. Why is he so determined to catch a pig? If his goal is to redeem himself from his moment of hesitation, in my opinion, he’s overdoing it.
Robert : The conch symbolizes leadership, organization, and the free will to speak. In the story, when Ralph blows the conch, everybody gathers to where he is and gets ready to listen. “By the time Ralph finished blowing the conch the platform was crowded.” (32) When the conch is in a speaker's hand, only he can talk while others have to listen. "I'll give the conch to the next person to speak. He can hold it when he's speaking.” (33) It also seems to how a civilization, in which when the conch is blown, everybody is civilized and listening, nobody is playing. It is also democratic because everyone one is allowed to speak, as long as there is a conch in their hands. But Ralph has all the power and it because a form or anarchy or a dichotomy, because only he has power and everybody has to obey him unless someone opposes his rule and rebels against him. But most importantly, the conch is the government. Who possess the conch has authority over the crowd at any moment of given time because everybody has to listen to him. Who has the conch reigns supreme in on the island. (Currently in chapter 1-3)
Why does Piggy's personality seem to contradict itself? In the beginning of the story, Piggy was described as a bit dumb and stupid, bu by the end of chapter 2, he was the only one able to know that the weather was getting colder, they should have built shelters, and that the bonfire was pointless. Is the author trying to use Piggy as an allegory for civilization and it's gaining and hidden knowledge?
I don't think I have anything to say about another's response yet, so I'll do that later; so here's my response!
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Reading Lord of the Flies, I always wonder how they got here. I know that they were shot down from the sky in an airplane, but why were they shot? Where were they from? Well, perhaps it’s obvious they’re from England, because Jack rants about it so much; but then why were they even flying, and where were they headed to? The book, up to this point, has produced no background information on the situation other than that all these boys were crashed landed on this unknown island. I do know this was during some war according to the summary on the back cover of the novel, but I think the missing of background story takes away quite some entertainment that could bring to life an even better beginning. Perhaps some immediate suspense in the beginning could really give the story a lift.
One of the most vivid quotes in my mind after reading Chapter 2 was when Jack said “His specs—use them as burning glasses!” and snatched Piggy’s glasses right off his face when he was surrounded and held up. This quote really painted a deep memory in my head because it is one of the most aggressive and exciting (not as in anxious) parts and it show Jack attitude towards a guy like Piggy. I feel that this simple phrase may play a significant role in the story, because it may foreshadow Jack trying to take over control with his ordering around or a big fight with Piggy.
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That was long enough, right?
A question I had when reading Lord of the Flies is whether Jack will rebel against Ralph. Are Jack and Ralph actually friends or enemies?
I think that the first three chapters of lord of the flies showed that something must go wrong throughout the story, as an early conflict was set up between Jack and Ralph. The conflict was introduced when Ralph was voted chief. ““I’m chief then.” The circle of boys broke into applause. Even the choir applauded; and the freckles on Jack’s face disappeared under a blush of mortification” (23). The vote obviously was an embarrassment for Jack, and I feel that he wants to get his revenge, sooner or later.
Though what perplexes me is that in numerous situations, Ralph and Jack share their goals, making them appear like allies. When Ralph asks “Piggy! Have you got any matches?”(40), Ralph immediately replied “His specs-use them as burning glasses!”(40), making it evident that Jack and Ralph are working together.
Goldin uses a lot of symbolism throughout the story in different situations. The first is the conch, which symbolizes power, as “I’ll give the conch to the next person to speak. He can hold it when he’s speaking.” And”He won’t be interrupted” shows that whoever has the conch has power (33). Piggy’s glasses represent intelligence and technology. It represents intelligence as he is the only one in the group wearing glasses and it represents technology as the glasses were used to light the fire. The numerous symbolisms make the reader expect something will go wrong as the story proceeds.
Anthony: I think that Goldin made the beginning purposely vague because firstly, it isn’t the main part of the story and secondly, it allows the readers to imagine the beginning.
Hi! everbody
“They used to call me piggy!”
Piggy usually is a word that describes a person a fat person. But why Piggy called Piggy? Is it because he is fat? Well people think of a better name, a cooler name. People don’t like fat people for some reasons. They probably seemed to be not intelligent, and they are really slow, people also think that they are dirty as the pigs. But they are wrong. Maybe they are not clever and not so fast, they still have a nice heart. Every people have their own goods, abilities, hobbies, but none of them are truly perfect, people are not perfect but they all have things that they are good at, Piggy, although that he’s very girlish but he got a good heart, a kind person
Anthony:
I actually think that Jack was helping Piggy when he said “His specs---use them as burning glasses! (p40)” and snatched them from him. Before this time, Piggy had always sort of been looked down upon by the other kids, because he’s fat and all; and maybe Jack took his glasses to get the fire going so that the other kids would think that he is actually useful and pay him respect. Yes, he did “snatch” the glasses instead of asking politely, but then he’s turning into a savage, right? So I think he didn’t mean to be rude, that’s just his “personality” since he’s not civilized anymore.
Had most of the kids gave up hope to be rescued? It seemed like Ralph still believed that his dad is going to come and rescue him, since he still worked hard on the shelter; but somehow the other kids seemed to forget the need of survival and focus on playing instead. “They’re hopeless. The older ones aren’t much better. D’you see? All day I’ve been working with Simon. No one else. They’re off bathing, or eating, or playing. (p50)” Will Ralph be influenced by them and put the need of survival and the hope of being rescued behind him too?
Why do the people on the island accept Ralph as a leader at first? Why do only a few seem to object to him being leader even though they have barely known each other?
Response to Robert
The conch is a very important symbol in the story. At the beginning, when they first find it, all they do is blow into the conch, and all the kids come running to meet them at the beach. In this way, the conch could be symbolizing authority and power, because the children already believe that the sound of the conch is like a call, one that tells them to congregate at the source of the sound. Also, at this first meeting, it is decided that whoever holds the conch will have the tribe’s undivided attention. Ralph says, “That’s what this shell’s called. I’ll give the conch to the next person to speak. He can hold it when he’s speaking… and he won’t be interrupted. Except by me.” Here, the conch is a literal symbol of power, because whoever is holding it will not be interrupted except by Ralph, who has a right to interrupt as the elected chief of the tribe.
The conch could also symbolize a government, and order among the tribe as well. Whenever meetings are held with the conch, everyone listens intently and follows the rules. For example, when Ralph is speaking, “But this is a good island. We-Jack, Simon, and me- we climbed the mountain. It’s wizard. There’s food and drink, and-… Piggy, partly recovered, pointed to the conch in Ralph’s hands, and Jack and Simon fell silent.” Here, the conch symbolizes order because Jack and Simon immediately fall silent when they realize that Ralph has the conch. Also, the conch is the one symbol of power for the tribe. It is revered, and they will always respect its holder.
At first, the conch did help govern the assembly, but it slowly loses its power. At the mountain, Jack says, "The conch doesn't count on top of the mountain... so you shut up." This shows how the tribe is slowly drifting away from the feeling of a government that is associated with the conch.
Why does Jack wants to be a hunter so much? Why is he so firm that hunters don't work on the huts?
Through these chapters, I think humans can be very selfish. In this story , I thought abut some questions, why wouldn't the children help Ralph and Simon with the shelter? The other question was, why wouldn't Ralph arrange the jobs for every children and making sure that they are doing their jobs? Instead of letting them playing around or doing nothing, like Piggy, who was just lying down and doing nothing.
“People don't help much.”–Ralph, page 54
If Ralph knows about it, then why wouldn't he call people to help him or he can arrange jobs to them? The children should help Ralph, they are part of this, and they should help. They picked Ralph for chief, but it doesn't means that he has to do everything by himself. A chief is for organizing everything and make sure everything is ready, in order to start on their plan or anything that they are going to do. They have to help Ralph, and help each other out, so that they can survive together. Like for example, Jack, all he cares about is the pig and meat, while Ralph is worried about whether everybody can be rescued or not. Jack almost forgot about the rescue thing.
Also I noticed, especially in chapter 3, Ralph is getting more and more frustrated and impatient. For example, when he was talking to Jack in chapter 3, he was very angry and starts to yell at each other. Which shows us and we can easily tell that Ralph is having a lot of pressure and frustration. He wants all the children to be rescued and he was also thinking of how to survive in this kind of situation, but while he was thinking about it, the children was just playing around and doing nothing.
It also shows that they are not that experienced in these things, they may be too secured. They doesn't know what to do, and like Ralph, he was trying to handle everything, but it turn out to be a pressure for himself, so he can’t handle it. If they are grown-ups, then things will be different and more successful.
These chapters, for me, it shows us the selfishness of human. In these chapters, you can notice that the children’s selfishness is showing more and more. For example, Jack, he only cares about the pig and meat. Others are just doing nothing and playing around. They didn't consider about Ralph or Simon, especially Ralph.
Tereasa: What does it mean when they say "wacco", "bong", and "doink"? Do they have meanings? Or are they just random noises they make? (p. 33)
I think they don’t have any meanings, but each child says different words in order to express their feelings. I think the author uses different words for each child to express what kind of person they are like.
What is the significance of the conch shell? What is the author trying to show with the conch? Ralph said on page 33, “I’ll give the conch to the next person to speak…” Does the conch help govern the assembly? Will the assembly listen to the rules?:
The significance of the conch is like the law of a country. Whoever is holding it is like the president or leader of that country, and as in Lord of the Flies, the conch gives the person who holds the conch the right to speak without being interupted or disturbed. Yes, the conch does help govern the assembly by at least having some kind of order for a short period of time. The assembly would listen to the rules for a short period of time then go back to playing or eating.
What is the significance of Jack's love for meat? Is he a simple meatlover or is he some kind of hunt freak and savage?
Why doesn't Simon tell the others about the big open space he found? On page 56 it says, "he looked over his shoulder... to confirm that he was utterly alone." Why did he keep it to himself?
Before I thought that Simon was a good person who likes to help people. While all the other children were out playing in the sand or swimming, he willingly helped Ralph attempt to build a hut. When Simon went to the jungle by himself, he helped the younger kids get the fruits on the tree. This shows that Simon is sympathetic to the little kids. All the other boys don’t really care about the little kids, only Simon actually thinks about them. All the other boys seem to care about their own survival, and when something goes wrong, they blame each other.
I started to picture Simon as a good person. But after finishing the chapter, I just didn’t get how Simon could be this selfish. When he was in the jungle, he found a big open space full of birds and butterflies. But the first thing he did was that “he looked over his shoulder… to confirm that he was utterly alone.” This made me think of him as a selfish person. He found a place that was so peaceful and he should have told the group. Maybe he thought that if he told the others, then the place would be destroyed. But the way he acted was probably how most people his age would act. If I was in his position and found the place, my first instinct would be, “I’ve worked so hard while all the other kids were just playing around. I deserve to have a place all to myself.” Simon is a kid too and he’s not a perfect person.
The boys don't really seem to have grasped the urgency of the situation yet. On page 35, Ralph says, "This is our island. It's a good island. Until the grown-ups come to fetch us we'll have fun." Their 2 main goals now are getting rescued and having fun. This misunderstanding of the situation is also displayed when Piggy says, "I bet it's gone tea-time." When someone is stranded on an island and they don't know how to survive or when they'll get rescued, tea-time is usually not the first thing that comes to mind. I hope they figure out what the situation is, or they'll die soon
ROBERT:
In William Golding's Lord of the Flies the conch represents power and order. Power is represented by the fact that you have to be holding it to speak, and order is represented by the use of it to call meetings.
The conch's power is presented in the very beginning on page 22 as the children voted for Ralph to be chief just because he was the one with the conch. "Him with the shell." "Ralph! Ralph!" "Let him be chief with the trumpet thing," this excerpt from page 22 shows how everybody seems to think that power comes from the conch. The conch is the only tool that allows a meeting to start.
The conch also displays order through the rule that you must have the conch to Speak in an assembly or meeting. Without the conch, none of the kids would listen to what Ralph was saying; people would be blurting out comments or their thoughts about things. Nothing would be under control. “I’ll give the conch to the next person to speak. He can hold it when speaking…and he won’t be interrupted.” said Ralph
Robert:
The shell was probably just a worthless object, but Ralph and the others acted as if holding it was great honor. It symbolized many things -
unity - they gathered once they heard the sound of the conch.
authorization - it meant that they were like an actual society, with laws and rules to obey.
respect - the boys would regard what the speaker said with respect, and it was a way to avoid arguments.
All Jack wants to do in chapter 3 is to kill and eat the pig. He seems overly obsessed about hunting the pig. I think that this is extremely immature of him. He is only thinking of what he wants to do and not whats best for the group. Meat is definitely extremely important but shelter should be more important. The kids needs somewhere safe and warm to stay and live. They could definitely live off of fruits and vegetables for a while.
When Ralph converses with Jack, all Jack can think about is hunting pigs and eating meat.
Is meat really that important? So important that it out weighs shelter and why is it so important to him and why does he obsess about it.
“At length he let out his breath in a long sigh and opened his eyes. They were bright blue, eyes that in this frustration seemed bolting and nearly mad. He passed his tongue across dry lips and scanned the uncommunicative forest. Then again he stole forward and cast this way and that over the ground.” William Golding, Lord of the Flies, page 48
Whoa. This is… one wild guy. In the beginning paragraphs of chapter three, Jack seems to have become a totally different person from the orderly neat choir leader who sings C major. William Golding talks about this “madness” in Jack’s eyes. Jack appears like a primitive human, or maybe even an animal (of course humans are animals, but I am talking about the intelligence and the civilization). He stalks his prey, relying completely on his senses, carrying a primitive spear and a strong desire to kill. Jack hasn’t killed yet, but I wonder how he will change even further after he does.
Through the first three chapters, do any of the children (ex. Ralph, Piggy, Jack, Simon...) change? Have they become more mature, more like an adult, or more childish? Have they become wild?
Argue how certain characters have changed and why you think so. Try to use quotes to contrast the differences. If you do not think any of the children have changed, express why you think so.
Jackie:
I think the reason Jack was so determined to catch the pig was not because he wanted to redeem himself among his peers, nor for the pork, but simply for the pleasure of it. It could be compared to how we kill ants not because they're in our way, nor because we want to eat them, but only because they're crawling around and it gets tempting to stab them. To Jack, the sound of a fleeing pig was "a castanet sound, seductive, maddening". His reaction towards the pig seemed almost inhumane. I think it shows how he was becoming more animal-like day by day and was slowly forgetting his human ways.
And okay, maybe he wasn't much of a herbivore either.
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My question -
What are some of Ralph's flaws and/or weaknesses? The author makes him sound too perfect. Even Harry Potter has faults.
Diane: I agree with Diane that the quote foreshadows something. I get the feeling that something dark lurks around the corner, waiting for its chance to pounce and devour the children; a shadow looming across the island that the children are completely unaware of.
At first, the children are optimistic, and think of being stranded as a great opportunity to have “fun” without any adults around, but after chapter three, things begin to change. Piggy obviously thinks that being stranded is the worst thing ever, but now Ralph seems to realize the hardships they will have to face, such as the need for food, fire, and shelter. The general attitude of the children is different. Even the older kids become uneasy over the snake-thing or beastie that troubles the little kids and the numerous unknown things about the island. It seems that from now on, the children will become exposed to trouble, and the happiness and childish innocence of the first few chapters will fade.
Also, here Jack admits his fear and concern to Ralph. I think that Jack recognizes Ralph as a person who possesses leadership qualities, and Jack almost treats Ralph like an equal (when Jack gets excited he becomes extremely domineering). This shows a certain friendship between the two boys, which is more like a reliance on each other’s abilities and knowledge. They have their first argument, and manage to patch up, but it shows how their fragile dependence on each other will fade with time.
“I’ll give the conch to the next person to speak. He can hold it when he is speaking.” Piggy said.
When Piggy and Ralph found the conch shell, Piggy decides to make a good use of the conch shell.
The conch shell is a symbol of government, disipline. and a assembly meeting call. People with the conch would have the political authority to speak up. I think this system with the conch resembles the democratic government, because in the Senate, representatives can also opinionate and make decisions just like the assemble in Lord of the Flies.
The conch is a symbol of order, because in a passage, Piggy cradled the great cream shell and the shouting died out. The conch shell is very significant in “Lord of the Flies”, because the major theme of the book is the struggle between civilization and anarchy. The conch shell’s purpose is to let the speaker have the right to talk without fuss and tumults. During a discussionin school, you have to wait until it’s your turn to speak up and pay attention to the speaker while waiting.
The conch is not only a symbol of discipline, but it is also an object that summons or signals the boys to gather around in a meeting. Without the conch shell, the boys would be savage and brutal without parents’ supervision. They wouldn’t maintain obedience, just like animals that are released into the wilderness without a zookeeper is catastrophic.
Although the conch is very powerful in the beginning of the book, however I foreshadow that the conch would be ineffective later in the book.
“You said you wanted a small fire…If you say anything, you say shut up; but if Jack or Maurice or Simon…” cried Piggy. In this passage, I understand that the conch symbolizes supremacy and authority, but I think the conch will work depends on the person holding it. For example, Piggy is not a leader-type of guy. He has asthma, is chubby and clumsy. No one in the group neither respects him nor listens to his dull ideas of resucing plans. In contrast, Ralph is an assiduous leader, athletic-type, and also responsible. Jack, Maurice and Simon are all co-leaders among the group. So, eventually, the little luns would listen to what they are saying, not because of the conch shell, but because of their own authority.
While reading "Lord of the Flies", I was puzzled and confused why Jack accepts being a secondary leader, but not the chief of this island? Jack appears just as strong as Ralph, however his role in this book is just to be a hunter? (Page 23) The freckles on on Jack's face disappeared under a blush of mortification. The suffusion drained away from Jack's face. Is Jack going to avenge his dignity and redeem his honor? Is Ralph really insensitive to Jack's ambition? What does Jack's ambition going to foreshadow?
I think chapter 1-3 is to slowly develop conflict between Ralph and Jack. The two engage in a verbal argument that indicates that each character is sticking to their own perspectives and not wanting to listen to each other. In Chapter three the changes in the characters' appearances and in the language they use. There is a significant gap of time between this chapter and the last. Jack hunts in the forest half-naked, and many of the boys wear "tattered shorts" or have bare feet, details that indicate that they have abandoned the ways of home in favor of comfort and ease. Moreover, the younger boys, referred to as "little ones" in the previous chapters, are now called "littluns". Chapter Three provides the reader with more insight into Simon's character. Simon was introduced in Chapter One but is not important until he interrupts Ralph's and Jack's argument. Described as barefoot, long-haired, and alternately "queer" and "funny," Simon is revealed as socially outcast from the other boys. But Simon seems content with his difference and when he, Ralph, and Jack decide to go look at the signal fire, Simon abruptly abandons the mission without word in order to wander off into the forest with a sense of "purpose." Ignoring the usual rules of social interaction, which would require him to tell the others of his plans out of politeness, Simon distinguishes himself as ruled not by society but by a spiritual inner force. From Simon responsible and hard working personality, I think he will eventually help Ralph to fight the aggressive and violent Jack.
Jenny: I agree with you :)
One thing that jumped out at me, particularly from Chapter 3, was how real the dialogue seemed, especially between Jack and Ralph. In Chapter 3, you can clearly notice some sort of conflict between them, ‘Suddenly Jack shouted in rage. “Are you accusing-?” “All I’m saying is we’ve worked dashed hard. That’s all.” They were both red in the face and found looking at each other difficult.’ yet a bond still remains between the two. On page 55, it notes that, “They looked at each other, baffled, in love and hate. All the warm salt water of the bathing pool and the shouting and splashing and laughing were only just sufficient to bring them together again.”
As we have only read a fourth of the book Lord of the Flies, it is only the exposition, and a conflict we see – the conflict being stranded on an uninhabited island with no grownups. At first, there is peace and order – in order to speak, you had to hold the conch shell, and roles have been passed around, for example, the choir boys were in charge of hunting. Jack and Ralph get along rather smoothly, despite Jack’s obvious jealousy and ambition for Ralph’s title of chief.
However, in chapter three, things seem to be falling apart. Ralph mentions that he and Simon are the only ones working diligently on building shelter, while everyone else is hunting, bathing, eating, or playing. Jack, as it is stated in the first chapter, is very single-minded, and he and Ralph have a typical conversation not unlike two kids trying not to argue with each other but find some points necessary.
So why is it falling apart? I would put it as an analogy for almost any other government out there – many in the history of governments have their ups and downs, their beginnings, and eventually, their downfalls. I think this marks the downfall of the order and civilisation that Ralph and Piggy have set up. It is beginning to break up – splitting between Ralph and Piggy’s sensibly organised control, and something else with Jack – it seems rather savage, as far as I can tell – he is always talking about hunting pigs and killing them, which doesn’t seem very civilised to me. He also has a quick temper and seems very narrow-minded, “’ ought to be chief,’ said Jack with simple arrogance, ‘because I’m chapter chorister and head boy. I can sing C sharp.’” insinuating not only his opinionated nature but also pure cockiness and over self-confidence. Jack doesn’t seem like the one to think much (like Piggy), or hold others in more value (like Ralph.)
At the beginning of this story, everything seems more peaceful – although they had just crashed and everything is chaos, but Ralph has situated the plan for them, and they have hope and diplomacy, like “the English.” In Chapter 3, things begin breaking up – the good terms between Ralph and Jack, the laziness of human, or especially children, the mess of anarchy.
Jasper: Why do the people on the island accept Ralph as a leader at first? Why do only a few seem to object to him being leader even though they have barely known each other?
I think the more appropriate question would be: why wouldn’t the children accept him? Ralph had been the one to call them all together, using the conch as a signal, and he was fairly good looking, as opposed to Piggy, who although was also there, did not have the looks to make a good first impression.
The boys did have a choice in leaders, but as a passage from the book would explain: “None of the boys could’ve found good reason for this; what intelligence had been shown was traceable to Piggy, while the most obvious leader was Jack but there was a stillness about Ralph as he sat that marked him out: there was his size, and attractive appearance; and most obscurely, yet most powerfully, there was the conch. The being that had blown that, had sat waiting for them on the platform with the delicate thing balanced on his knees, was set apart.”
So, to first question, he called them together. That must have been a very powerful tool of persuasion, especially since they’re all still basically kids. Gathering them together gave them a purpose, and probably calmed their fears from being stranded on an island with no visible signs of rescue or adults. Even if the children knew that he was not the source of the idea, the fact that he made the action that had results makes him more appealing. Meanwhile, Piggy, although intelligent, was whiny and did not have as good of an image as Ralph, nor did he have the charisma. Jack, as the quote indicated, was an obvious leader, but he probably gave a bad impression from the way he treated the choir members. He was obviously ambitious, but perhaps overly so, that the children were slightly apprehensive of how he would act as a leader.
To the second question, see my response above :)
My question is: Would Jack or Piggy have been a better choice? Why or why not?
To Jenny: I'm pretty sure that the calling of "littluns" is more of an English way of speaking then an actual change language..the author is merely portraying the characters' dialect in order to get the readers more involved..
Doris: I doubt neither Piggy or Jack would be a better choice.
For one, Piggy is, well, not very attractive and fat. Although that might not seem very important - and plus he has the brains for it (he is the brains behind the chief now, Ralph) - but it changes the way people look at him, especially younger people. He isn't very appealing to be a representative of them. And Jack certainly won't listen to him - consider the attitude he is towards him already.
Jack seems a little - overconfident and tyrannical. He constantly tells Piggy to "shut up" and uses violence against him. This is certainly what you don't want in a diplomatic chief. :)And all he seems to care about - see this in chapter 3 when he and ralph are talking - is hunting. I think Ralph (or Piggy, behind him) is the more reasonable voice - thinking about huts and fire: rescue and shelter. What Jack is responsible for - meat - is not entirely necessary, because they have enough sustenance in the fruit on the island, it is pointed out (at least, no one's dying right?)
Tyng-Yih Lin-I think Jack will eventually oppose Ralph. The obsession of hunting and killing pigs actually shows how aggressive and violent he is. Jack and Ralph are completely different. The way how Golding introduces Ralph and Jack shows how they can not become friends. Golding describes Jack and his compatriots as militaristic and aggressive, with Jack's bold manner and the choir marching in step. They are the first concrete example of civilization on the island, with a decidedly negative feel. Golding idealizes Ralph from the beginning, lavishing praise on his physical beauty. Ralph's value is not intellectual; importantly, he behaves somewhat childishly in his first encounter with Piggy. Still, Golding suggests that Ralph has a gravity and maturity beyond his years. He is a natural leader, a quality that the other boys immediately recognize when they vote him leader. The vote for chief establishes a conflict between the different values of Jack and Ralph. Jack assumes that he should assume the role automatically, while Ralph, who is reluctant to accept leadership, achieves it by vote. Ralph therefore comes to represent a democratic.
To add on that - Jack looks down on him. Do you really think if Piggy were leader, that Jack would actually listen to what he has to say?
Not only is Piggy fat, but he has 'ass-mar', giving him an appearance of not only being unattractive but weak as well. (Okay, I don't know if everyone knows that Piggy has asthma or not)
Help, anyone? :D
Also: What do you think about Simon? So far we know that he faints a lot, he's really skinny and cheerful looking, and he's one of the only who actually helps with the huts. :D Why is he so, and what does the author want to portray with him?
angela: Dude, Ralph isn't really perfect, or at least it doesn't seem like it to me. At the beginning of he book, right after Piggy said, "I don't care what they call me, so long as they don't call me what they used to call me at school."(pg. 11) Ralph was all like, "Piggy! Piggy!" (pg. 11) This shows he's like really insensitive and immature. He didn't even take Piggy's feelings into consideration, I mean, what's his problem. Then, when people should have be working, they were playing around, ignoring their responsibilities. He's got the looks of a leader and everything, but he lacks the personality factors of one. He can get the people's attention, but he can't make them concentrate on work for a long period of time. I guess he was setting an example when he was working on the huts with Simon, but, seriously, no one was even paying attention to him. As the leader, he should be able to get people to do their jobs. :)
Elissa-
I think by adding Simon into the story, the author is trying to show that not all humans are bad, and that not everyone on the island was a power monger. Later on in the story, the bloodlust of Jack and his followers result in Simon's death, which symbolizes how evil can easily overcome innocence.
Jackie-
He was just playing around when he teased Piggy. It showed that he was a kid with a sense of fun, not as a insensitive and immature person. On page 21, Jack called Piggy "Fatty" and Ralpy immediately defended him. And he did get the boys' attention, otherwise how else had he gotten them to vote for him? He possessed the charisma which made him fit to be the leader and everyone knew it.
“A fire! Make a fire!”
At once half the boys were on their feet. Jack clamored among them, the conch forgotten.
“Come on! Follow me!”
The space under the palm trees was full of noise and movement. Ralph was on his feet too, shouting for quiet, but no one heard him. All at once the crowd swayed toward the island and was gone-following Jack. Even the tiny children went and did their best among the leaves and broken branches. Ralph was left, holding the conch, with no one but Piggy.
Why does the group of kids get so excited over a fire? Was Golding trying to show the quality of undisciplined children? Perhaps he was trying to show how boring it was to be stranded on an island?
Also, why did the bonfire the children created spread to one half of the island? Was Golding trying to express the inability of children to “think before they act”?
Or was it something else? Perhaps a foreshadow to a conflict in the story later on?
Richard: I think the snake symbolized fear of the little ones, like Robert said. Some may think that the snake is something that was dreamt up by the little boy, but on page 53, “There’s nothing in it of course. Just a feeling. But you can feel as if you’re not hunting, but----being hunted, as if something ‘s behind you all the time in the jungle.”(Something said by Jack), it tells us that the snake may not be an imaginary thing; it may be real and later cause problems to the children.
Looking at this issue from a different perspective, I think the snake might be something that was dreamt up. Sometimes we think up of things when we’re nostalgic, and that was what was happening with the children. They miss home, therefore they dreamt up a beast.
Tyng-yih: I think that Jack and Ralph will eventually turn into enemies. From "even the choir applauded; and the freckles on Jack's face disappeared under a blush of mortification," you can tell that Jack was disappointed and angry at Ralph that he wasn't voted chief. And also, their personalities are very different. Jack is more savage while Ralph is more civilized. All Jack wants to do is kill pigs. Ralph builds shelters so they ca have a place to sleep and live. Through the small conflicts they have so far in the story, you can assume that their conflicts will develop and they will become enemies.
Does Jack symbolize anything in the book?
Other else than possessing the most undesirable body of the group of boys, does Piggy have any other shortcomings, particularly in his character?
Angela:
Ralph has good intentions, and as of chapters 1-3, Ralph is pretty much a flat character. It's very nice of you to bring this up. I read ahead, and Ralph's character darkens later on. Looking at now, I find that while Jack openly shows contempt for Piggy (which makes him the antagonist), Ralph is not much better either. You could say that Ralph is a bit selfish in leadership--he only addresses problems that are applicable to himself. When Jack evidently picks on Piggy because Piggy had berated him, Ralph makes no attempt to stop him. Yet, he gets extremely worked up when Jack goes off to hunt, for he leaves him alone with the shelters. There are other times when Ralph personally discriminates Piggy as well. Also, we must not forget that Ralph let slip Piggy's name in the first place, and did not apologize.
Reply to Frank:
I don't think that Piggy is really portrayed as dumb and stupid in the beginning. I think he is just more quiet and not so crazy as the other boys. He seems very fragile in the beginning and starts off quiet, but as things progress, Piggy shows his intelligence. I think the author uses Piggy to show the smart and rational side of civilization. When everyone else seems more savage and crazy, Piggy defies them with his brains. He represents the organization and everything needed for a good civilization to run. Piggy, though, has his limitations, like his asthma and his glasses. His glasses stand for intelligence, and without intelligence, civilization is lost. His asthma shows the limit of what a civilization can do, because asthma limits what Piggy can do and how he is compared to other boys. I think instead of showing how society learns, Piggy shows what a well run civilization is like, but even a well run one can have problems.
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What do you think the snake beast is? How is it affecting the children? Do you think it symbolizes of foreshadows anything?
The dog-like, uncomfortably on all fours yet unheeding his discomfort, he stole forward five yards and stopped. (page 48)
They were bright blue, eyes in this frustration seemed bolting and nearly mad. (page 48)
I think the quotes above shows how “beast-like” Jack is. The narrator describes him as “dog-like” and “eyes that seem bolting and nearly mad” for a certain reason.
I think that Jack wants to be a hunter so much, because it fits his barbaric and violent personality.
I think that Jack thinks that being the hunter is an honorable job, because all the littluns want meat and if he could get the meat, the littluns would honor him. And as I mentioned above, it almost fits his personality.
How does “littluns” and “Samneric” symbolize the new “civilization”?
I think it has something to do with the language of a civilization, because every civilization needs a commom language so the people can communicate.
Stanley:
I think Jack wants to hunt for meat because he is a violent person. Knowing that Jack wants to hunt makes me think of the ancient emperors who conquered lots of land (because it is also killing and fighting). And after linking to that, I think that Jack is more of a leader who thinks shortly (because of the killing and fighting). Shelter is definitely important and the littluns can definitely live off the fruits on the island, so Jack is just a leader that thinks of what he wants.
[am i making any sense here?]
Richard: I think that the reason Ralph said "beasties" live in countries like Africa, because he was trying to calm the kids. He didn't want them to get even more scared about snakes when they were already trapped on a unhabitated island. It would be really troublesome for Ralph especially since he's chief and having little kids bug him about beasts was something he didn't want to have to worry about.
What's the significance of Ralph being good looking, Piggy being fat, and Jack being ugly?
Fernando:
Your own voice fills up your response :D
According to what you said, the name Piggy doesn't fit Piggy and it is ironic how people name him Piggy, because he is definitely smart.
Bess:
What's the significance of Ralph being good looking, Piggy being fat, and Jack being ugly?
Ralph-I think it is to make us think that Ralph is better and he will be the good guy throught out the book (but I think that he will change in the end so the story will have irony in it :D [I haven't finished the book by the way])
Piggy-I already mentioned in my comment on Fernando's comment, so you can go read that.
Jack-(same as Ralph) I think it is to make us think that Jack will be the bad guy throughtout the book but he will be the good guy in the end that saves everybody.
Responding to Weifan:
I'd think that other than having a undesirable physical appearance, Piggy seems also rather physically handicapped. Not only is he unable to run and swim because of his size, but also because of his asthma. So in one sense, he may be the most intelligent in the group but may also be the most physically incapable. This may perhaps show a handicap of nature. Nevertheless, in terms of character, Piggy seems to be rather paranoid. This can be seen when he doesn't want to give out his glasses and takes them back right away. I think he may even be distrustful of his mates on the island. I can only assume that this may be a result of being bullied as "Piggy" in his past school. Additionally, I think rather than asserting his own authority and his "say" he is rather dependent on the leader (in this case Ralph). He always asks for verification with people even though he knows it's the right thing to do. Personally, I think he may be too dependent on the leader and afraid to take action himself.
=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=
Is there a significance in the discarding of clothing after coming onto the island other than the fact that it's hot? Additionally, what may be the symbolism in the fact that a lot of the children's shorts became tattered after being on the island?
jasperl:
...because Ralph is the one who brought them together, and i think that's the beginning of leadership. The other kids know that without Ralph, they would still be scattered around the island, so as I said before, a leader brings people together, so they voted for him in hope that he'll be the good leader they think he'll be.
"Him with the shell./ Ralph Ralph!/ Let him be the chief with the trumpet thing."
my question..
Why do people listen to Jack and Ralph?
Is there anything special about Ralph that causes most people to treat him as leader? What does he have that others don't that gives him authority, other than the conch shell (because the conch shell will give anyone authority)?
Elissa - I think the author put Simon in the story so that the story would have someone who is a sort of contrast to both Ralph and Jack. From what we've read so far, Simon seems to have a good heart and is helpful to people, even Piggy, however, he is not bold, which makes him stand out from Jack and Ralph. Jack is mean and doesn't seem to have any inherent good in him at all. Ralph, on the other hand, is generally nice but can be insensitive to other's feelings, which is shown when he laughs at Piggy's nickname and starts to call him with it, even though Piggy already told him not to. However, both are bold and seem to be more like leader-type people. Simon, on the other hand, stays in the background more but still does stuff, like when he helps Piggy find his glasses, so that we don't completely forget about him. Also, from the above thing, we see the most striking contrast between him and Ralph/Jack: Ralph and Jack would never help him find the glasses; they would only ask for it to light the fire. It shows Simon's kindness.
Steven: About why the bonfire spread so quickly, I think the author is trying to show the fact that even with good intentions, if the method is not right or there is no cooperation, then things can still go badly wrong. The children knew that they should send some sort of signal up, and they decided on the fire, but because they started arguing, they left the fire unattended and it spread, doing irreparable damage.
What made Simon pause? “Simon paused. He looked …he was utterly alone”p.56
I thought the fact that the boys became so mature and so ready for survival in such a short period of time was astounding. I mean if I was in the position, i would still be in shock and a state of panic, and i probably wouldnt have calmed down and readied myself for survival so quickly. Anyone have any thoughts on why they matured so fast?
Does Piggy’s personality contradict himself? How does he represent civilization?
Piggy's personality is contradicted in many ways. In the beginning, Piggy was a very quiet being in the beginning of the story, but later on when the bonfire was happening, he becomes more and more authoritative. Piggy is like civilization because he stands for organization and intelligence. His glasses act as the no barbarianisms of civilization. His asthma limits him from doing rowdy activities. Moreover, civilization does not use strength in muscle or fitness, or by the power of the mind and intelligence. In civilization, we think of as organization, of intelligence of technology. Piggy represents all of the above. He understands organization. When the kids were running off like “a crowd of kids.” Instead of going with the group, he is organized gets himself together, and not running around like barbarians.
Michael Wu: Ralph has more superior leadership due to his kindness comparing to Jack. Jack owns the proud of being American, and also, although he said something about setting up rules but he already broke it by taking away piggy’s glasses himself without permission. That would influence more or less.
Ted L.: Mainly the reason for the kids maturing so fast is probably because of them thinking this as a game. The old kids admitted to this as a "paradise island" and they are only going to be on this island for a little while, so everyone is relaxed and going along with their time.
Albert Liang 9B
"We've got to have rules and obey them. After all, we're not savages." -Jack (p. 42)
This quote shows how Jack is such a different ruler compared to Ralph. Ralph wants to lead the children with hope and democracy. That's why he made the rule for the conch to be passed so everyone would have a chance to speak. Jack, however, wants to rule with absolute power. In the beginning, he led his choir group tyrannically. He forced them to march in lines and yelled at them like a tyrant would. Ralph is a more reasonable, diplomatic ruler, and Jack is a totalitarian one. They are basically opposites.
“There aren’t any grown ups. We should look after ourselves.” From
this quote we can see that the children are losing their innocence of being a child and growing up and becoming adults. In which they are trying to keep civilization and keep order until someone can come and rescue them. But from other context we can see that they are not entirely “adults”—“Until the grown ups come fetch us we’ll have fun.”and “Like kids!...Acting like a crowd of kids!” Looking at both of these quotes we can understand that they still have a part of their kid-like nature. This is what I don’t understand why the author makes the characters suddenly seem adult-like but sometimes still like children.Being “adults”, the children do a number of things that creates a sense of society. First by electing a leader, then slowly building on to it. “We’ll have rules!” “Lots of rules!”and “All the same you need an army—for hunting.” But being children, we can see that they still play around acting carefree like nothing is wrong.
“Meetings. Don’t we love meetings? Everyday. Twice a day. We talk. I bet if I blow the conch this minute, they’d come running. Then we’d be, you know, very solemn, and someone would say we ought to build a jet, or a submarine, or a TV set. When the meeting was over they’d work for five minutes , then wander off or go hunting.”
I think this quote is significant because it displays Ralph’s serious attitude about survival. He is no longer a child, instead an adult who has taken the role as leader to govern the children on this island. “They’re hopeless. The older ones aren’t much better. D’ you see? All day I’ve been working with Simon. No one else. They’re off bathing, or eating, or
playing.” Ralph complains about how the others think this is like a paradise where they can play and their parents would come to get
them at the end. Why doesn’t Jack help them get the other’s to work?
He was the one who suggested that he should be the chief of the
group and he isn’t much help either. I think Everyone should cooperate and complete their tasks because if they don’t, soon they’ll run in shortage of food and water, there’ll be no shelter when there is wind and rain, and they haven’t found a plan on getting off this island yet. This is not a enjoyable game but a game of survival.
Kimberly: I agree that Jack wants to impress the lttleuns with meat. It does fit his personality because all he wants to do is to hunt.
" He wants to know what you are going to do about the snakes...He says it a beastie....
He said it comes in the dark..." Said Piggy helping the kid to ask Ralph about the beastie.(35~36)
Sometimes young people like us, ages around ten to fifteenth, they try to make themselves so high and mighty and talk big as if they are adults and know everything. In the novel, the kid, who is around the age six is in fact telling the truth and are frighten of those beastie, the snakes. Ralph, as the older kid, would say to the littluns, "You couldn't have a beastie, a snake-thing, on an island this size. You only get them in big countries, like Africa, or India." Such thing to be said from the leader isn't the right way to make the little kid feel secure. The little kid might not be sure if it's a snake or something else that's also in the jungle. But the kid know there's something, something dangerous to them, and they have to be aware to it. But older kids are too naive, and playful about the island. No matter how old they are, there are many unsure things, and you can't just assure from whatever you may have learn in school or what you heard from other people. One island, anything could be on there if there are pigs. Older kids are so much full of themselves that they don't believe in anything the little kids are saying, or trying to tell everyone, that there is something dangerous or huge on the island. Kids around six years old never lies, because they are still kids, and they tell the truth whatever it is. Little kids have pure heart, and older kid should at least try to understand or ask where might this beastie thing is when the kid first see it. There are many stories that adults not
believing the little kids, kids around first to sixth grade. In the end, when it comes, it comes, and there's no way turning back because the kids had warned them something is wrong or anything the
kids could be aware of while the adults don't. For example, there's this girl, around ages nine to fourteen, who was kidnap by this guy who eats human, literally, take place in Milwaukee, Wisconsin. The first time she was kidnap, she got lucky and got away, desperate telling her parent about this man who kidnap her, and saying she found human bones, and human body parts in the fridge. But her parents and neighbors did not believed her. The second time she got kidnap by the same person, she nearly got killed but she got away again. Telling her parents and neighbors, everyone refused to believed her, and even laughed at her, she nearly cried by this, and her parent thought she was insane. Then one day, her parent found her missing for a week. When they found her, she was already in pieces, along with the other two human body who had also gone missing for a long time, another young kid and an old human body. It was already too late, no matter how much they cry for not believing her, there's no way turning back. Applying this to,"The Lord of the Flies", I believe something similar could happen if they keep on going like this not at least take a little consideration of the kids safety, even themselves.
Posting a question:
Where did the kid who saw the beastie go? What do you think this foreshadows?
To Robert: I think the conch shell represents government and civilization. Whoever has the conch has the right to speak. It is like the conch shell is a symbolism for authority.
I think the assembly will listen to the conch because it is basically the only rule they have. I think that the conch was a good rule that they set up. It can help govern a society and gives power to people. Without the conch, people would speak up without following any guidelines, and the society would be a mess. The conch is there to act like a government and to help govern the society.
Alice: Think about what the contrast shows.
Amy: Good point! But do we know what is going to happen to Ralph later in the book? (I haven't read further, but I think Ralph might change)
Question:
Why doesn't the assembly want Jack to be the leader? When he was walking towards the group on their first meeting, he had definitely showed his leadership and disciplining skills. Just because it was Ralph who blew the conch, why didn't they choose Jack over him?
Amy: I agree with what you said, Ralph did become more serious than the first moment they land on the island. He seems to be ready to take the full responsibility about this. The tune he use in meetings, and using the conch to keep everyone in order, and respecting others.
“If you’re hunting sometimes you catch yourself feeling as if –” He flushed suddenly. “There’s nothing in it of course. Just a feeling. But you can feel as if you’re not hunting, but – being hunted, as if something’s behind you all the time in the jungle.” (53)
Jack says this, and there’s a hint of insecurity and fear of the unknown. Jack is a rather proud sort of person, and a perfectionist. His blushing was because he was ashamed to admit such trivial fear of his, but underneath there’s the real, raw, human fear. He fears the unknown. He’s just a child, although he may not readily admit that, and Jack has to cope with childish notions and fears too.
I think the quote also foreshadows. Since Jack may be so scared of what he doesn’t know, and so egoistic, he may try to blindly take control. Something bad may happen – almost like something will come down on them and trap them.
Steven: "Also, why did the bonfire the children created spread to one half of the island? Was Golding trying to express the inability of children to “think before they act”?
Or was it something else? Perhaps a foreshadow to a conflict in the story later on?"
I think Golding was trying to that, I agree with you, once something is done with not much thinking, it can very quickly get out of control and become huge. It does foreshadow something. The children were wild after the fire, "The knowledge and the awe made him savage" (44). Their abandonment of civilized-ness after something they unleash is an ill omen.
*trying to portray that
Jasper~Why do the people on the island accept Ralph as a leader at first? Why do only a few seem to object to him being leader even though they have barely known each other?
I think they accepted Ralph as a leader only because he was the one who had blown the conch shell. And besides, they wouldn't want Jack as the leader since he's so arrogant.The people in the choir group didn't vote for Ralph since Jack is the leader of their choir group. It said in the novel: With dreary obedience the choir raised their hands. They probably didn't even want to vote for him.
The boys are half between civilization and savagery, sometimes it seems like they economy is civilized but some of their actions are like savages. “When Ralph said ill give the conch to the next person to speck. He can hold it when he’s speaking”. By using the conch as an authority to speak, it becomes like a democracy. The conch shows authority to the person, allowing the person to say what they want, giving the person freedom to speak. When they were trying to start the fire, jack pointed to piggy and forcefully took his specs without piggy’s permission. Taking his glasses forcefully showed their savage side. Piggy holding the conch, should have the permission to speak, but the boys didn’t allow him to speak, until he reminded everyone that he had the right to speak with the conch. Making their own words like biguns, littluns, or sameneric, shows that they are starting to make their own language, starting to develop the basic structure of a civilization. During these 3 chapters they are still changing between civilization and a savages, sometimes a savage sometimes turned into civilized people.
Amy: I think why Jack is not helping Ralph to get people to work is because Jack is engrossed in trying to hunt for a pig. He doesn't care about anything else, his mind is focused on killing the pig and providing meat for the boys.
Ted L: i don't think the little kids matured, they were just too little to get the fact that they are trapped on an island. Little kids get distracted very easily, and the island had a lot of things that could entertain them. There weren't any grown-ups to boss them around; they were free to do whatever they wanted to do. As for Ralph, I think he was one of the only ones that knew that they would die on the island if someone didn't save them. He knew that what needed to be done for survival, that was why he told everyone to watch the fire. Jack had turned savage, and was caught up on hunting pigs.
Jasper Louh- I think they accpeted ralph as a leader because he is the one with the conch and also he is the one that united them together. Some of the choir people didnt vote with Ralph is maybe because of Jack. since jack is their leader.
Why do they have to use the conch? Why not use a rock instead?
to daisy: Conch shells can be used as wind instruments, by cutting a small hole in the spire and then blowing into the shell as if it were a trumpet, as in blowing horn.
so i think that a conch would be more useful than a rock.
yo sup
here's my question:
Will Jack and Ralph break apart? Will Jack rebel?
i guess that it all started at pg 23, the part when they competed for the chief spot.
Jack got the votes from the choir boys, but the rest of the boys voted for Ralph. Jack was pretty confident that he would be the leader ("I ought to be chief, because i'm chapter chorister and head boy. I can sing C#"
). This probably shows that he's the antagonist in this book. I think jack stands for the desire for power, selfishness, and amorality. In chapter 3, ralph and jack began to start their feud. Ralph, annoyed that Jack, like all the other boys, is unwilling to work on the huts,implies that Jack and the hunters are using their hunting duties as an excuse to avoid the real work. Jack's response was that they want meat. The 1st verbal argument starts here, with Ralph, who thought about the overall good of the group, and jack, who cared about food, hunting, and desire for power more.
so yes i believe that they will break apart. Jack will rebel.
(dun have my book with me>.<)
Do you think that the children will become more mature because of this accident? Have they learned how to take care of themselves without the help of adults? I think they did. Ralph said, “We can’t have everybody talking at once, we’ll have to have ‘hands up’ like at school” This shows that they are trying to maintain order among the kids, and they are learning how to do things in a more efficient way. Then they thought of an idea, Ralph suggested, “That’s what this shell’s called. I’ll give the conch to the next person to speak. He can hold it when he’s speaking.” Because of this whole situation, it forced them to think of ways to keep them alive on this island. It also, shows Ralph’s leadership and organization among the group of kids. With this idea, everybody will take turns talking instead of everybody talking at once.
Jerry: I don’t think they will break apart, because they can’t. They are both stranded on the same island, and they will need each other’s help eventually later on in life. If they break apart, then nothing will go right, and it might caused them even more trouble than they are facing right now.
In response to Jasper,
But there was a stillness about Ralph as he sat that marked him out; there was his size, and attractive appearance; and most obscurely, yet most powerfully, there was the conch. pg.22
Even though Piggy is obviously the smarter one and Jack could sing C sharp, everybody except the choir of boys voted for Ralph to be the chief. Ralph was taller than Jack, even though Jack already controlled the choir, and Ralph was better looking. Perhaps Jack would’ve won the vote if Ralph didn’t have the conch. The conch, as Robert mentioned, symbolized leadership and authority; the conch was what called the children together on the island. The conch was the decisive point of the vote.
Ralph is now the chief and he’s the one who get to make the main decision, like starting the bonfire signal and building the shelter. Ralph sometimes makes decisions without thinking about when and how it would be done, as Piggy points out. There might be arguments later on about Ralph’s decisions.
Do pigs have any symbolism in this story? What is the significance of pigs?
LOTF CHAPTERS 1~3 RESPONSE
“He’s a commander in the Navy. When he gets leave he’ll come and rescue us.”
Ralph says this, trying to assure Piggy, and himself, that they’ll be rescued, but I, as a reader, doubt that Ralph thinks so. We’ve seen so far, in the first few chapters that he makes a good leader. Sometimes. He can effectively bring people in together and soothe them despite the hopeless scenario they are stuck in. A lot of the time, he tells the others some things that bring them some sort of comfort and hope, but are the things he’s saying really true. Does he really believe that his father will come rescue him?
“How does he know we’re here?” Piggy asks. Piggy is only half believed that Ralph’s father will come save them, hence Piggy being the more sensible and thoughtful one, as it is revealed in later chapters. This also shows that although Piggy gives a first impression of a fat and blunt person, it is later revealed that he is actually the most civilized and sensible member of the children.
“Because, thought Ralph, because, because. The roar from the reef became very distant. ‘They’d tell him at the airport.” From this quote, we can tell that Ralph didn’t have a good answer to Piggy’s inquiry. He may seem like a good leader, which he is, but there are still questions that he cannot answer truthfully. I think that the reason he doesn’t answer them truthfully is because he is not only afraid the others will lose hope, but also himself.
“’Nobody knows where we are,’ Piggy said. He was paler than before and breathless. ‘Perhaps they knew where we was going to; and perhaps not. But they don’t know where we are ‘cos we never got there.’” Again, Piggy brings up this issue about them being stranded on an island and that no help will be on the way. According to what Ralph said before, his father would come save them eventually. Ralph, the supposed leader, on the other hand, only grins that this statement.
“Nobody said anything. He grinned suddenly. ‘But this is a good island, we climbed the mountain It’s wizard.” Even after Piggy tries to explain the fact that they are in grave danger, Ralph still keeps his immature attitude towards survival. As the story moves on, I start to doubt Ralph’s leadership ability. I do think that the fact that he can assemble everyone together for a meeting, and his hard work of trying to contribute to their little organization is praiseworthy, but sometimes, I think his actions are impulsive and are done without much thinking. If you really think about it, I think what Piggy says has a point, and because of this, I think Piggy might be a better leader than Ralph.
Compare and contrast Ralph and Piggy’s personalities. What do their personalities reveal about their background (as in their family life)? Based on their personalities, which one do you think will make a better leader?
In response to Tyng-Yin :
I think that Jack will go against Ralph's authority and overthrow his leadership because as the story progresses, it is revealed that Jack is an unstable and somewhat selfish person. He cares only for his own desire for blood and not for the greater good for the people by looking after the fire. He is also the first to show signs of turning savage and bloodthirsty. "KILL THE PIG. CUT HER THROAT. SPILL HER BLOOD."
chpt 1-3 response
Jack suggested to have himself to be the leader however Ralph out voted him and became the leader instead. Jack seemed angry at Ralph for he clearly wanted to lead to take control of the group of children. However after Ralph assured Jack that he has the choirs at his command Jack’s attitude to Ralph completely changes.
The circle broke into applause. Even the choir applauded; and the freckles on Jack’s face disappeared under a blush of mortification. He started up, than changed his mind and sat down again while the air rang. Ralph looked at him, eager to offer something. “The choir belongs to you, of course.”
“They could be the army-“
“Or hunters-“
They could be-“
The suffusion drained away from Jack’s face. Ralph waved again for silence.
“Jack is in charged of the choir. They can be-what you want them to be?”
“Hunters.”
Jack and Ralph smiled at each other with shy liking.
What reason do the two boys have to like each other? They are different in so many ways completely opposite of each other. Their idea, appearance, attitude are so different, what “liking” could they possibly have for each other. Even though Jack might like Ralph for giving him choir however I don’t see why Ralph would like Jack.
Why did Ralph give the choir to Jack?
Why did Ralph let Jack have the choir it seemed so unnecessary, and dangerous to give his rival power and to give them the role of an army or hunter, for them to be the force or the strength of the group? It seems that Ralph is trying to satisfy Jack assuring him that he is also in a position of power and still have some control and power over the rest. It’s to me pointless to give Jack power when Ralph is in the position of power and leader. Ralph might be afraid of Jack however there is nothing Jack can do when the majority is on Ralph’s side. Therefore I think Ralph shouldn’t have given Jack the choir.
Response to Robert Jin's Question
The conch is a symbolic item. In the beginning, the boys are drawn to it by its beauty and awesomeness. But by the time the boys began to use it for calling assemblies, it had begun the symbol of leadership, organization, and freedom of speech. "...We'll have to have 'Hands up' like at school." He held the conch before his face and glanced roun the mouth. "THen I'll give him the conch." (page 33) It was used to call order in the meetings, and used to determine who could be speaking at one time. The conch is very important to the children, especially Piggy, because Piggy wants them to be organized and democratic. THe conch symbolizes civilization while the hunt is savagery.
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Why does Jack wish to be a hunter so much? Is it because he feels that it is a honorable job, or just because he is lazy? Why is he so firm upon the rule that the hunters do not work on the huts?
I think that it is unfair when people discriminate people’s outer looks. Why do people do that? Is it done on purpose?
The main point of Chapter One I believe is the difference that separates people. Piggy, who looks chubby, had asthma, and a weaker body, acted as a foil for Ralph, who had “fair hair” and better physical looks/features. All the children on the island are skinny, the little ones and the big ones, except for Piggy. Everyone stayed away from him because he looked different and dumb. The children, including the “littluns and biguns” are very ignorant, judging Piggy by his outer looks and not the inside. The children start disrespecting Piggy, especially Ralph, because he didn’t care about the promise he made to Piggy. When Ralph made fun of Piggy, EVERYONE “jumped on the bandwagon”. If one of the children didn’t laugh along with them, or stood on Piggy’s side they would also be kicked out. Therefore, they have no choice but to let peer pressure overcome them and follow others.
In the first three chapters, the children on the island resembled the levels in society: authority. Ralph was the so called “president”, the one who everyone would listen to. Jack was the “vice” and everyone would listen to him too. The children made up the “middle class” and they were ruled by Jack and Ralph. Piggy unfortunately was classified into the “poor”, where nobody would care what he says, even if he were right.
Why does the author make the characters all boys? What would happen in the story if there were girls and boys? What would happen if the story had only girls? Is the author stereotyping females and males?
@jasper luoh
I believe that precisely because they barely know Ralph or any other of the strangers they have met, their voting is based on first impressions. As compared to Jack, who is intimidating and arrogant, he is good-looking and an aura of gentleness.
Here are the quotes to back it, "there was a mildness about his mouth and eyes that proclaimed no evil." and "But there was a stillness about Ralph as he sat that marked him out: there was his size, and attractive appearance."
Most importantly, he holds the conch, the symbol of power and authority. It is the sound resonating from the shell in Ralph's very hands that summons and instigates the gathering of all the lost children. In this manner, since the children are 12 and under, as what you previously mentioned, " the children already believe that the sound of the conch is like a call, one that tells them to congregate at the source of the sound."
Here is the quote to back it up, "most obscurely, yet most powerfully, there was the conch."
This shell basically set him apart from all the rest. It was how they boys identified him when they elected him as a leader. ("Him with the shell.", "Let him be chief with the trumpet-thing.")
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