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"Fancy thinking the Beast was something you could hunt and kill" (143)!
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2008
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October
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- Please post your response for chapter 12
- Please post your response for Chapter 11
- Please post your response for chapter 10
- Please post your response for Chapter 9
- Please post your response for Chapter 8
- Please post your response for Chapter 7
- Please post your response for Chapter 6
- Please post your response for Chapter 5
- Please post your response for Chapter 4
- Please post your response for Chapters 1-3
- LORD OF THE FLIES Reader Response Journal
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October
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80 comments:
Does the fire represent rescue or savagery?
Why did Ralph cry? Is it because he feels sorry for Simon and Piggy, or because he's happy that he's rescued?
“But the island was scorched up like dead wood…Simon was dead… and Jack was…The tear began to flow and sobs shook him.” pg.202
What happened to Jack? Why did Ralph start crying?
Jasmine:
I think that the fire represents rescue, since the fire is the reason why the officer came. Though, it is kind of ironic, the fire was meant to kill Ralph, but instead it actually saved him from the savages. Ralph cried at the end because he was happy that he was rescued also because he lost Piggy and Simon. From the beginning of the story, Ralph acted like a leader and he had to keep reminding them to make the fire. He played the role of an adult and he became tired of reminding them. When he saw the office, he was finally relieved, he doesn’t have to care about the savages anymore, he could go back and have his civilized life. He also cried because he lost Piggy and Simon, those two were the only one loyal to Ralph all the time. I think he cried for them because he thinks that it was his fault that he didn’t take care of the assembly, which made the boys turn savages and kill Simon and Piggy.
--
"But the island was scorched up like dead wood - Simon was dead - and Jack had...." (202)
What is Golding trying to say about Jack?
At the end of the story, the officer came and saved Ralph. He is reproachful by their manner of being savage. But at the same time, it is ironic, because the officer himself is involved in the war, which is a symbolism of savageness. Why does Golding uses such an irony ending?
JASMINE: Ralph cry because he is finally saved. After all his hardworking, he finally can go back to the civilized world. And he is depressed of Jack's change since the beginning.
Adam: Ralph cried because that he is rescued, he is safe, but unfortunately without Simon and Piggy.
In the last chapter, the savage boys treats Ralph like an object, chasing to kill him like when they hunt the pigs. Ralph has finally completely noticed that the boys have turned into complete savages without any moral principles. Ralph decides to fight back Jack shows how he too has turn into savage, but do you think Ralph had any choice but to fight back? When Simon told Ralph that Roger has a spear sharpened at both ends, what does this tool symbolize?
In order to find Ralph, Jack decides to start a fire that will destroy them and burn the fruits that is important for their survival, Is Golding trying to tell the readers that in this point, Jack does not care about his life anymore? Or is it simply because he was too savage to think about the consequences?
When I finished reading this final chapter, I found the fact that the boys are finally rescued by a naval officer is an ironic ending because when Ralph and the boys were working hard to maintain fire, hardly anyone saw the signal. Instead it was the fire in the forest created by Jack’s tribe that caught the attention of the naval officer. Why do you think Golding wants to make the ending as if Jack was the one who rescued the boys’?
Q: Jack set fire on the forest. Didn't he think about that he would get caught in the fire too? Does that mean that their savageness has taken over themselves?
"He turned away to give them time to pull themselves together; and waited, allowing his eyes to rest on the trim cruiser in the distance" This was the finale of the book and in this part the officer gives them time to get tearie while staring at the trim cruiser. Is their any signifigance in the officer staring specifically at the cruiser? Why?
Jasmine Chen: “But the island was scorched up like a dead wood-Simon was dead-and jack had… The tears began to flow and sobs shook him.” In this quote we see that Ralph’s tears formed because of all the tragic events that happened on the island. From Jack’s rebellion to Piggy’s death and after pausing to think for a moment about all these past incidents Ralph couldn’t hold back his tears of sorrow.
Simon and Piggy were like his closest friends who kept with him to the end and Jack was just someone he wanted to change and become friends with. However Simon and Piggy were both killed and Jack , instead of befriending him, ended up trying to kill him instead. Everything that he had wanted and needed were lost, his friends, loyalty, and leadership. After losing all these things it would be expected of even an adult to shed tears for these problems
The reason he didn’t cry earlier, even though these issues had happened earlier, was because all the pressure and issues of surviving. “They hate you, Ralph. They’re going to do you.” “They’re going to hunt you tomorrow. He had no time to mourn over all these things because Jack hated him and he had gathered all the savages to hunt for him. When he met up with the officers, all the savages had stopped the chase and he finally had some time to ponder the past tragedies.
So many things had gone wrong on the island for Ralph and even worse some of his best friends were lost. He was stripped of everything he valued and when he had the time to stop and think tears came out. These tears were for all the pains, all the deaths, and all the mistakes on the island.
Adam: I think Jack cried because suddenly, he realized what he has done wrong since their time on the island. Ralph cries because he is now safe from the savagery of Jack’s tribe. It seems as Jack suddenly became conscious again and started to look back at what he has done and cause on the island. He had became so savage and ordered the murder of two kids, Simon and Piggy. He also was guilty of not believing Ralph that they could be rescued if they had a signal fire calling for help. Now, after the ship came, he realized that it was possible to be rescued, despite not believing Ralph. Ralph cried because he is now safe from being killed and cried for the end of the savagery. “Ralph wept for the end of innocence, the darkness of man’s heart, and the fall through the air of the true, wise friend called Piggy.” Ralph realized that the end of savagery has come and that they have lost a true wise friend named Piggy. He starts to see how everything fits together and how Piggy and savagery had played a big role on destroying this island and turning a few of them into ruthless savages.
"A little boy who wore the remains of an extraordinary black cap on his red hair and who carried the remains of a pair of spectacles at his waist, started forward, changed his mind and stood still."
Why did Jack stop from saying he was chief?
The officer has definitely asked a good question. How could a group of well-educated boys at this age could turn so savage in a short amount of time. Was it just this specific group of kids that would turn against all the rules and regulations that they were accustomed to back in civilization, or is that savage, uncivilized self in all of us? Would we behave in such a uncivilized manner or would we organize and create a safe environment to live in until we get saved? And could we stay civilized even when the question of survival pushes us to the limits of civilization?
Adam:
I think Jack ended up staying on the island because it says that "A little boy who wore the remains of an extraordinary black cap on his red hair and who carried the remains of a pair of spectacles at his waist, started forward, changed his mind and stood still." and so I assume that Jack decided to stay back on the island. Ralph started crying because he had finally been rescued and because of the lost innocence of the children. They had completely become wild and resorted to violence and savagery.
Jasmine:
I think in the last chapter of Lord of the flies is full of irony. Ralph meant to make a fire to be saved from the island. In the end Jack set the island on fire and was trying to kill Ralph, but in the end he saved Ralph and the other boys. I think the fire represents more savagery in this chapter because Jack's main idea of the fire was to kill Ralph and never intended to use it to save them from the island.
Question:
Why did Golding end with such an ironic ending? To the fire, to the officer, was there a purpose to the irony?
As it turns out, Jack sets fire to the forest to kill Ralph and because of this, gets the children saved. Through savagery, the children were saved. Does this mean anything significant?
I think it's funny how the fire, which is supposed to symbolize civilization and hope, now becomes a representation of savagery. Ralph used the fire, hoping to get saved by a ship. But Jack uses it to try to kill Ralph and to cook meat. It's weird, because Jack's trying to use something that he stole from Ralph and Piggy and killing Ralph.
When the officer came, he seemed surprised at how the boys, who are just kids, became like that. It shows the difference between the savages and the civilized. And even Ralph, who represents civilization, looks savage compared to the officer.
jasmine- why did ralph cry?
I think he cried both because he is happy that he is finally being rescued, and because simon and piggy died.
In the end of the chapter, Ralph had lost all his powers. but the twins seemed to be helping Ralph secretly, privately when Jack wasn't in the camp. but then my question is, is the fire big in the forest? if not, why people didn't saw their fire? but when Ralph is in a great danger?
Once they have set the island on fire, could there have been more deaths? And why does Ralph cry at the end? Where is Jack now?
adam: I think Jack was still in the forest and not knowing what happened. Ralph starts crying mainly because he is sorry for the people he has lost. Piggy and Simon are the most important.
"The teeth grinned, the empty sockets seemed to hold his gaze masterfully and without effort. What was it?" (pg. 185)
Why does Golding ask what it was?
"Then he backed away, keeping his face to the skull that lay grinning at the sky."
If Ralph just broke the skull in two, why does he back away from it with such caution? What does he think it will do? Does he think it's a threat?
Also, it seemed like the pig's skull represented something very important when it was first brought up earlier in the novel. Why does Golding suddenly bring it up again at the end of the story?
To Jasmine:
I think before Ralph and the boys arrived to the island, their hearts are pure and their manners are civilized because the laws and the adults are repressing their desire to do things their way. After living for a long time on the island, the boys start to realize that even if they make mistakes, they wouldn’t be blamed, criticized, or punished. So, later in the book, the boys aren’t vivacious schoolboys like they used to be, instead, they are called savages. Ralph sees the malicious side of human beings, especially the boys and Jack. Ralph cries because Simon and Piggy sacrifices for the dehumanization of the boys and that Ralph had clearly seen how people would change when the civilization/order are absent and the id is present in their minds.
Question: In this chapter, Golding uses a lot of irony to end the story. For ex. Why is the point of rescue ironic? Why is the purpose of the fire ironic? Why is it ironic when the officer acts civilized and scolds the boys that they shouldn’t be so savage-like?
this is the correct one sorry
In the end of the chapter, Ralph had lost all his powers. but the twins seemed to be helping Ralph secretly, privately when Jack wasn't in the camp. but then my question is, is the fire big in the forest? if not, why people didn't saw their fire before when Jack and his tribe became savage? but when Ralph is in a great danger?
“The skull regarded Ralph like one who knows all the answers and won’t tell. A sick fear and rage swept him. Fiercely he hit out at the filthy thing in front of him that bobbed like a toy and came back, still grinning into his face, so that he lashed and cried out in loathing…Then he backed away, keeping his face to the skull that lay grinning at the sky.” (Page 185)
What is happening during this part of the story? What is the sick fear and rage that surges through Ralph? Why is Ralph afraid of a simple skull of a pig? What is the power that the Lord of the Flies possesses?
I think the skull, or the Lord of the Flies, has a sort of hold upon the mental mind of a boy. When Simon was here, he was affected by the skull as well. He became nauseous and sick, staggering and falling over. Ralph felt that the skull was regarding him in a condescending manner, and became so angry that he split the skull in two. I think the fear and rage in Ralph was fueled by the fear of getting killed and the rage towards the savages. People that are abused generally abuse others to vent their anger. The skull has a very symbolic meaning, for it affects the story very much.
My question:
What is the significance and symbolism of the Lord of the Flies (the pig head)?
Haley:
I think the whole ending is in irony. They get saved because of the smoke from the fire, but the fire isn't a signal fire and was intended to kill Ralph. At first, he tries to keep the signal fire on as much as he can, but at the end he’s trying his best to keep himself alive. Just when he’s about to be killed by Jack, a ship comes and saves his life. I don't think that the officer is a symbol of savageness; he is just paid to act like a savage and kill his enemies. The officer doesn't want to kill his enemies as cold-blooded as Jack, and he is much more civilized than Jack. I think Golding uses such a ironic ending because if he let Jack and his tribe roam the island for the rest of their lives the story wouldn't have any meaning in it.
"The officer, surrounded by these noises, was moved and a little embarrassed. He turned away to give them time to pull themselves together; and waited, allowing his eyes to rest on the trim cruiser in the distance." –Page 202
At the end, the officer turns around, moved and embarrassed, to let Ralph and the kids regain their composure. I think this allows the kids to recover from their savageness, and tells us that savageness and civilization aren’t as far from each other as it seems in this book.
Question:
And in the middle of them, with a filthy body, matted hair, and unwiped nose, Ralph wept for the end of innocence, the darkness of man's heart, and the fall through the air of the true, wise friend called Piggy.
In the first part of the sentence, it tells us how Ralph lived on the island, but at the end, with the "darkness of man's heart", what does Ralph realize, and what is Golding trying to tell us?
James:
I think the purpose Golding is trying to express through letting the savagery save the children is an ironic one. Golding establishes the fact that Jack is the evil and sinister one, but he "rescues" the children in the end. however, i think that the idea of smoke originated from Ralph, so Jack was actually doing what Ralph wanted them to do without realizing it.
Response:
I think the last chapter is very ironic, because I thought that the signal fire was going to save them. However, it wasn’t the signal fire that saved them. It was the forest fire Jack set up in order to force Ralph out of the forest. Jack’s act of savagery saved them all, which was unexpected to me, because throughout the whole novel, Golding uses Ralph’s voice to say that civilization is better than savagery. However, suddenly, in the last chapter of the novel, something surprising appears. I think this shows that even though most people think that being civilized is better, but being a savage isn’t bad either. The savageness of Jack saved them all.
James:
I think Golding is using irony to make us have a better impression of the novel. But about significance, I guess it could be something like umm being civilized doesn’t necessarily mean that it’s better. [?]
Question:
What is the significance of Golding’s description of the white skull like the white conch? (page 185)
Helen: Why did Golding end with such an ironic ending? To the fire, to the officer, was there a purpose to the irony?
Maybe the ironic ending is telling us that in a civilization, there will always be savage people in which we need to learn how to deal with them. Somehow I think Golding wanted to skip the part where Ralph and Jack’s biggest conflict starts. Perhaps Golding wants to leave some imagination to the readers by letting us imagine how the conflict between Ralph and Jack would end up to be like.
To James Moh:
Like Helen said, I think chapter 12 is very ironic. When Jack attempts to smoke Ralph out by burning the forest, he eventually gets everybody rescued. From the start of the book until Ralph lost all his fire, he was always the one that wanted to keep a fire going. He believed that in order to get rescued, they must have a fire that can produce smoke. When Jack stole and destroyed Ralph’s fire, hopes of getting rescued had disappeared because without a fire, no one would ever see them. Ironically, Jack, when trying to push Ralph out of the forest, builds an enormous fire; by that, the whole assembly was rescued.
Another ironic irony was that Jack, the evil one, eventually gets everyone rescued. He attempts to do something that would ultimately kill a person, but got everyone rescued.
Question:
After everyone was rescued, do you think Jack and his people would still be enemies with Ralph? Or would they regain their consciousness and start behaving like “civilized British boys” and forgot all about their past in the island.
*Note:
Liang says he got a typo. His correction: "or the things society teaches us, are present".
"Hide was better than a tree because you had a chance of breaking the line if you were discovered." pg. 197
Is Ralph losing his reason? He's starting to think more like a pig than a human. Is he only overly nervous due to the circumstances, or now completely crazy?
Haley: Golding probably wants to imply that savagery is everywhere. You can't get rid of it just by leaving the island, since it is within us all.
Fernando,
“The fire reached the coconut palms by the beach and swallowed them noisily.” pg 200.
The fire was big and was consuming the whole forest. The huge flames created smoke so the cruiser saw them. If the cruiser didn’t come, Ralph would be killed, either by the savages or the fire. The fire will burn up the whole islands supplies of fruit, pigs, and people on the island. It’s lucky that the cruiser came just in time. Piggy said this about the fire at the beginning of the story, I think it’s interesting.
“’Now you been and set the whole island on fire. Won’t we look funny if the whole island burns up? Cooked fruit, and roasted pork. And that’s nothing to laugh at.’” pg 45
Reuben Wong: I think the officer gave the kids some time to realize what they have become since the ship wreck. The Cruiser symbolized home for the kids. The kids have been away from their home for too long and they have become homesick. These kids are still too young to be separated from their parents, they need adults or someone to tell them what to do and to take care of them.
Not only are they homesick but the Cruiser reminded them of themselves when they were civilized and now they see what they have turned into on this island. They have realized their wrongdoings and that has hurt them emotionally.
Response/Question:
On page 198, second to last paragraph, “The savage moved forward so that you could only see him form waist down. There was the butt of his spear. Now you could see him from knee down. Don’t scream.” Here, Golding switches the former omniscient point of view to second person point of view that describes what Ralph is feeling. If it is to let us relate to Ralph better, why did Golding choose this part? He could have chosen another, more climactic part, where Ralph is thrashing through the bushes, or when the boulder is heaved down to his hiding place on page 193?
However, I have to admit that it works very well, placed at the exact right moment of suspense where Ralph’s life is hanging on the balance.
Does the spear that Ralph took out of the sow's head symbolize anything? Also, such a tragic book coming to what seems like an abrupt stop. Doesn't it seem a little unecessary to what the boys have done then? Killing Simon and Piggy. Fighting over the true leader. Doesnt that mean nothing now that theyre saved. So my question is, why did Golding choose this type of ending?
Richard: Ralph realizes that innocence does not last forever, and certain circumstances can completely change a man. The end of innocence is always near, one can't hide from the blemishes of mankind forever.
Adam: I think Golding was foreshadowing at the huge fire the savages set up when he made piggy say that in the beginning of the story.
Jasmine: I find the fire very very ironic - at first, Ralph sees it as a sign of civilisation and orderliness - they have a clear goal, and that is to be rescued. They have this goal, and they do what it takes to enforce it. Yet like all things that can be both, fire is turned back by the uses of the savages. Instead of a sign of hope and civilisation, it turns to an emblem of savagery that is actually trying to smoke Ralph out and kill him.
What is really weird is when the fire is for civilisation, no ship arrives to save them, and they soon forget why they have a fire, what the good is - which is to be rescued, obviously. But once they have all forgotten - once all of the signs of civilisation and reason: Piggy, Simon, the conch are destroyed, and the fire is set to kill Ralph, that is when civilisation and reason returns in the form of a naval officer. All the boys then suddenly receive some kind of shock propels Ralph and some littluns to cry, stops Jack from starting forward to say he's in charge.
It seems like everything has gone back to normal - like it was at the beginning of the story where all the boys were just normal boys, but there is that one element of innocence that has been taken away.
I also love the format of this chapter - Ralph's thoughts are blunt, short, and realistic. And the conch and the pig head being the same colour as white strikes me as rather ironic too. The pig head is the exact same colour as the conch was before. Does that prove that the conch in all its whiteness once had the power, now it's all transferred to 'lord of the flies', the pig head?
What does the scene where Ralph stares at the skull ("Lord of the Flies") and breaks it, symbolize? Does it show Ralph's undying righteousness? His defiance to the "devil's ways" to the very end?
jasmine: Why did Ralph cry? Is it because he feels sorry for Simon and Piggy, or because he's happy that he's rescued?
According to the book, Ralph cried "for the end of innocence, the darkness of man's heart, and the fall through the air of the true, wise friend called Piggy"
my question:
Why didn't Ralph cry over Simon too? Hasn't Simon been a true friend who stuck to his side too?
and
What did Ralph ever do to deserve such horrible treatment from Jack? Why does Jack hate Ralph so much? Now that they're saved, will they still hold a grudge against each other?
Why do you think Golding named the last chapter "Cry of the Hunters"? Does it symbolize something? Why isn't the chapter called "the rescue" or something like that?
"Roger sharpened a stick at both ends." What do you think Roger wants to do? Why are Sam and Eric so afraid? They are part of Jack's tribe, yet why do they still give Ralph meat and warnings?
"One of them came close to the officer and looked up.""I'm, I'm""But there was no more to come." Jack would most likely be rescued with the others, because he and his savages were looking for Ralph, trying to capture him and kill him. Jack would most likeyly participate in the hunt, and would end up on the beech with everyone else. Ralph cried because he whas rescued, and he didn't have to set an example to the other kids as a leader to feel brave. As a leader, Ralph would have to keep the morale high by setting a good example. He had to make them believe that they would be rescued, and that he didn't cry because that would eat his words.
My question:
What is the significance of the thicket, and what does it symbolize? And what did the fire symbolize, as it burned the thicket?
helen: Why did Golding end with such an ironic ending? To the fire, to the officer, was there a purpose to the irony?
From the notes at the back of the book: "The whole book is symbolic in nature except the rescue in the end where adult life appears, dignified and capable, but in reality enmeshed in the same evil as the symbolic life of the children on the island. The officer, having interrupted a man-hunt, prepares to take the children off the island in a cruiser which will presently be hunting its enemy in the same implacable way. And who will rescue the adult and his cruiser?"
I think that Golding's idea about the ironic fire was just that life is ironic sometimes.
ADAM: I think Ralph started crying because he felt the immense burden of worries for the boys, and himself, lifted from his shoulders. He cried for Piggy and Simon’s murders, and the innocence all the boys lost. Ralph had been running for his life, running from savage boys up for killing, and running from death. Now he is rescued, and he can finally relax and go home. He has endured so much on the island; he probably wouldn’t forget the experience for the rest of his life.
the ending was ironic, why?
was it because that Ralph lost all of his powers and support to back him up against jack or what?
Jasmine: he cried because he was rescued, but at the same time, he lost his friends
Why did Ralph start to cry? and why did the other boys cry too? Why would they cry when they were savages?
helen~
maybe golding wanted to spice up the ending with something ironic i guess.
Does Ralph hiding in Simon's small hut symbolics anything?
And what does the stick sharpen at two ends symbolics?
Kristen: I think that the last chapter is named "Cry of the Hunters" because Goldin wanted to show that Jack and his tribes aren't human anymore. They are hunters who shout angry cries and show no mercy.
Question
"-they made us. They hurt us-"
"honest, Ralph, you'd better go."
Why didn't Sam and Eric want to join the tribe of Jack? Was it because they were scared of Jack? Or are they simply loyal to Ralph?
To Jerry Yeh:
Well Jack might not have thought that there will be a forest fire just because he set fire, and yes maybe that the savageness has effected his way of thinking, it changed him defiantly, it had him want to kill and forget that kill is a bad thing.
Chapter 12 question
“You’re sure he meant in there?” The twin moaned faintly and then squealed again.” “He meant he’d hide in there?” “Yes—Yes—oh---!” Silver laughter scattered among the trees. So they knew.” (192) Why do the twins betray Ralph? Does this symbolize that Jack and his tribe changes anyone that joins into a savage?
tyngyih: i think sam and eric didn't like jack's tribe because they believed that ralph was the one that could lead them to rescue.
jasmine and adam: i think ralph cried because he was letting out all the stress and fear that he has been bottling up, especially because he could've been killed if it weren't for the officer. i also think it is because he was sad because simon and piggy died. =))
Reply to Tyng-yih Lin: I think the twins did not want to join Jack’s tribe because they are still royal to Ralph. “Listen, Ralph. Never mind what’s sense. That’s gone----“ “Never mind about the chief--- “ “----you got to go for your own good.” “The chief and Roger----“ “----yes, Roger----“ “they hate you, Ralph. They’re going to do you.” “They’re going to hunt you tomorrow.”
The twins are shown here to be still royal to Ralph by telling him to go instead of giving him in to Jack.
Stanley:
If we were trapped on an island, I think the chances of us turning savage would be slim. The enviroment might not be danger-free because there would still be other dangerous things on the island, but at least we wouldn't have to be scared of one another.
Yes, we would probably need to hunt, but hunting doesn't necessary mean painting our faces and becoming beast-like. Hunting would be to get food and that would be its only purpose. There won't be any "chants" that might accidentally get someone killed. We won't be perfectly civilized, because we wouldn't be able to eat with forks and knives like we do at home. There are some things that needed to be sacrificed, but we wouldn't have to give up on civilization all together.
The last chapter of the story the group of children finaly got rescued from the island finaly their signal was seen and help came for them.finaly Ralph who has completely lost the war on the island has been released from Jack's savagness and cruelty. It seem shocking that a group of kids who stayed on the same island for only a short period of time, had done two murders and that have all but one become savage.
In this chapter I really admire Ralph's bravery and courage even though all his followers has either left him or died, he still won't give in to Jack even when his all alone.
What does Sam and Eric represent in the story?
These are forced to be in Jack's tribe in order to survive but in actuality they are on Ralph's side. Don't you think they sort of represent the ego and they might symbolize that even in the most savage group of people they are still some who is ego.
HALEY:
At the end of the story, the officer came and saved Ralph. He is reproachful by their manner of being savage. But at the same time, it is ironic, because the officer himself is involved in the war, which is a symbolism of savageness. Why does Golding uses such an irony ending?
This ending is indeed ironic. Jack built the fire in order to get Ralph out of his hiding. But in reality, it actually saved them. All this time, Ralph has been wanting to get rescued and kept emphasizing on maintaining the fire. The time that their fire worked was when it wasn't meant for rescue.
This whole story is a microcosm of the real world. The story was set during the same time as the war.
Adults in the real world were also struggling for power. There were people who were acting like savages, killing people all over. Golding makes the ending ironic to show that not only can kids become savage, even adults can become savage and unreasonable in the real world.
The question I had in my mind was, in the bottom of page 184, the narrator says, “ No fire; no smoke; no rescue.” It was obviously in Ralph’s mind, but, here comes my question, is it because of Piggy’s death woken up and refreshed Ralph’s memory and mind of rescuing thing? Or does he always know about it? What made him think about it? By himself, Piggy, or seeing the action of Jack?
“Daylight might have answered yes; but darkness and the horrors of death said no.” – narrator, page 186
What does Golding mean in this quote? What is the significant of this quote? This question has confused me, not only the way it’s said but also the meaning. What is the meaning of this?
The skull regarded Ralph like one who knows all the answers and won't tell. A sick fear and rage swept him.
-----------------------------------
Why did Ralph get so angry at the skull?
Jenny~Ralph decides to fight back Jack shows how he too has turn into savage, but do you think Ralph had any choice but to fight back? When Simon told Ralph that Roger has a spear sharpened at both ends, what does this tool symbolize?
Of course Ralph has to fight back, if he doesn't he'd already be DEAD. I don't think the stick symbolizes anything, but I'm not sure.
MY RESPONSE:
In this chapter, Ralph encounters trouble and is threatened by the savages of Jack’s tribe. He tries to hide, but in the end they seek him out. They only stopped pursuing Ralph when they meet the officer. Why? It also said in the book that: Ralph wept for the end of innocence, the darkness of man's heart, and the fall through the air of a true, wise friend called Piggy.
What is the meaning of this and why is he crying? Isn’t he relieved that the presence of the officer/adult stopped the savages from killing him?
QUESTION:
What was that innocence that Golding said on page 202? "...Ralph wept for the end of innocence, the darkness of man's heart, and the fall through the air of the true, wise friend called Piggy." Why did the rest of the littluns cry along with Ralph? Is Jack dead or alive?
BESS:
Ralph was angry at the skull because he disliked the fact that the skull looked like it knew everything single little thing. It was grinning at him, mocking Ralph's ignorance.
ADAM:
Ralph was finally brought back into reality, and in his mind, he knew he was safe, and he would be rescued. After so much hardwork and hardhips on the island, he was almost about to lose his life when the naval officer appeared.
ROBERT:
I think that Golding was trying to tell us the humans cause destruction, similar to locusts destroying a field.
STANLEY:
Since we are older and more mature than Ralph ,Jack, Piggy and the littluns, I'm pretty sure that only a few problems will surface. We would hunt, but not become savages like Jack. We would clean up after ourselves instead of smelling or looking filthy.
Tyng Yih:
I think they were simply loyal to Ralph, and they were threatened by Roger and Jack. IF they weren't threatened in the first place, I believe that Sam adn Eric would have sticked to Ralph instead of Jack.
JENNIFER:
I think that Golding wants us to see some good in Jack, instead of disliking or detesting Jack. I think that before things would get worse, Golding ended the story with a naval officer to the rescue.
TED L.
I think the author chose this kind of ending mainly because he wants the reader to wonder about the meaning of the last paragraphs.
Jasmine: Ralph cried because before he was under the pressure of a lot of things, but now that he’s rescued, he can let all his emotions out. I think the fire was ironic, because it was a symbolism of civilization and rescue, but then the savages used it. There is no one to save them when the fire is used for rescue, but while the savages use it someone comes and rescues them.
What do you think Ralph would do, after he’s back to civilization, will he remember the things that happened on the island as lessons? Or something else?
In response to Kristin,
Yes, Jack is alive. He was the one who stepped out when the naval officer asked who was in charge there.
I think the reason why the littluns were crying with Jack was that only now did they really understand the whole situation on the island. Only now did they understand the dangers that lurked and the dangers that they were to each other. This was the point where they really begin to understand the events on the island and lose their innocence. Now they finally understood what Piggy was trying to do for them. Before, they took Piggy as something to be made fun of and never really appreciated what he did. Now they finally realize that he was the one who was doing the right things and trying to get everybody together. He was also the one who even paid attention and listened to the littluns.
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My question:
On p. 184 even after what has happened Ralph was still trying to convince himself that Piggy's death was an "accident". Why did he do so? is the author trying to convey anything when Piggy first tried to convince himself of the same thing about Simon and now Ralph of Piggy?
I don't think the littleuns became savage. They were just afraid of Jacks followers like they were afraid of the beastie. They probably were sad that they made the wrong choice
Q
1: The chapter was named "The Cry of the Hunters" Does this mean Ralph is a savage too?
2. Why did the signal fire Ralph emphasized so much on in the beginning not rescue the kids and the forest fire did instead?
“You’d better go…” Samneric said to Ralph.
Ever since Ralph got separated from Samneric and Roger, Jack had wanted to search for Ralph and kill him. Jack now had completely become the savage one, one who will never ever become a human again, but a wild man. Jack had lost his mind, that he would search the whole island and burn up everything on the island just to search him. In this chapter, many were killed by Jack, and others were as worse Jack is.And, what's the purpose to burn up every bits of the fire that Jack made?
Other thing I noticed was, at the end of the story, when the naval officer asks Ralph who’s the head, and Ralph reply, “I am.” No one go against him for saying Jack is the chief. Is it because they had finally approved his leadership? Or are they too scared to go against him? Some that are in the choir under Jack did not go again Ralph for telling the naval officer that he’s the leader.
What have become of Jack? What happened to the others was painted, when they come together around the naval officer? Why did all of them cry?
Ralph cried because they are finally saved from the savageness. I think the other boys cried too because they are still kids, and they are glad to be rescued.
Nicholas,
The stick sharpened at both ends may not seem like much to Ralph, but look back at page 136-137.
"'Sharpen a stick at both ends' Presently he stood up, holding the dripping sow's head in his hands.
'Where's that stick?'
'Here'
'Ram on end in the earth. Oh--it's rock. Jam it in that crack. There.'
Jack held up the head and jammed the soft throat down on the pointed end of the stick..."
A stick sharpened at both ends means sacrifice! Jack intends to hunt Ralph the way they would hunt a pig. They would have cut off his head and jammed it on the "stick sharpened at both ends". This also implies subtly that the boys are nearing cannibalism.
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Enough said, my question:
What is the true irony of Chapter 12?
Ralph nearly flung himself behind a tree when he saw something standing in the center; but then he saw that the white face was bone and that the pig’s skull grinned at him from the top of the stick…the skull about on a level with his face, and held up his hair with two hands. The teeth grinned, the empty sockets seemed to hold his gaze masterfully and without effort.I thought his part was kind of strange, because in this section of the chapter, Golding makes the pig head seem so alive—seemed to jeer at him cynically. Why does Golding do that? It also reminds me of the part where Simon meets the Lord of the Flies, but why doesn’t Ralph? And is this part significant?
Reply to Amy:
I think Ralph cry because he feel sad for Piggy and Simon, those two most dear to him, and true to him died and that they don't get to be rescued. The two that had been the most important to him, also i believe he remembers what Simon had told him, "I just think that "you" will be able to go back." And that part really stands out, and it's true at the end, Ralph did get rescued while Simon died from being killed by those savages.
Reuben
I think that the officer staring at the cruiser does hold significance. We know that the story takes place on the dawn of the next world war, so the cruiser is probably off to battle, while carrying these kids in tow. The kids have just been in a small war of their own, and the cruiser will probably be proceeding to another battle. I find this ironic because the officer seems to be the hope at the end of the story, but when you look at it, he's actually just dragging the children into another war, except that this one has adults in it. I think Golding uses this to show that adults and children aren't really that different from each other; they both get involved in conflicts and they both are vulnerable to savagery without the presence of rules.
Question
"Roger sharpened a stick at both ends."
What do you think this means? Haven't we heard this before? Didn't Jack tell Roger to sharpen a stick at both ends when they were killing a sow? What do you think the punishment for Ralph is, then? What is sharpening a stick at both ends?
One thing i noticed:
Remember when Simon said to Ralph, "You'll get back to where you came from""...All the same, you'll get back alright"..."I just think you'll get back alright" (P.111) What Simon said came true, Ralph did get rescued when Simon got killed by the savage ones. He who also wanted to get home at the end didn't get saved. Such as Piggy who had always been on his side, supporting him, a true friend, now died did not get to be rescued. Such two important people, and good out of all the rest were killed. I believe this is why he cried at the very end of the story.
On p. 184 even after what has happened Ralph was still trying to convince himself that Piggy's death was an "accident". Why did he do so? is the author trying to convey anything when Piggy first tried to convince himself of the same thing about Simon and now Ralph of Piggy?
When Simon died, Ralph's and Piggy's denial was probably because of shame, since they got too carried away. However, when Ralph insisted that Piggy's death was just an "accident", I think it was because of shock. He didn't try to kill Piggy, and Piggy's death was so sudden that it struck him speechless, so he couldn't think of anything better to say.
To Helen: I think the ending was ironic because Golding wanted to show that in spite of the fact that most of the boys have practically all turned savage, in the end, and deep down, they are still boys. Throughout the book Golding has portrayed these kids as if they were adults, and has made them do adult things, make adult decisions, and think like adults. Making a government, organizing hunting parties, and lastly creating a tribe seem like things an adult would do. But I think Golding especially wants to establish the fact that for all the severity of what the kids have done and who they have become, in the end, they are just boys who got carried away.
My question:
"Roger sharpened a stick at both ends." The book never really explains what this quote means. What does it mean? Symbolic meaning? Literal meaning?
the ending was ironic, why?
was it because that Ralph lost all of his powers and support to back him up against jack or what?
(Jerry) A: Wait…how do you know the ending was ironic if you dunno why…? -_- ( I sense a “sparknotes”…xD)
The ending of the story was ironic because of the reason the boys were rescued. Remember when Ralph said that a signal fire was the only way the boys could be noticed and rescued by the outside world, and we as the reader also felt that the signal fire would be the only chance they would get. As the boys declined toward savagery, they stopped continuing the signal fire, and it seemed like all hope for rescue was lost. However, when Jack and the other savages set fire to the island in order to smoke out Ralph, this savage act actually was the reason the naval officer noticed the island and came to help them.
This shows dramatic irony, because we expected Ralph’s organized method to work, and for things to fail with Jack in command, but Golding designs the story so that the opposite happens. Before, when the boys were organized and working together toward a common goal, their efforts were unable to achieve the wanted result, representing the failure of their civilization, but when Jack turns savage and starts and uncontrolled forest fire, this brings about the rescue that Ralph had desperately tried to get with the signal fire. This confuses we as the reader as to which was actually the right path, civilization or savagery, because while civilization seems to be closer to getting the goal of rescue, in the end it is the unrestrained savagery that brings about their salvation.
There is also more irony in the reactions of Ralph and the boys. Normally, we would expect them to be ecstatically happy about finally being rescued, but instead, we see grief even from Ralph, who has been adamant about being rescued throughout the story, and instead of the expected joy, pain and sorrow over their loss of innocence is what happens.
-Feral Wolf
Why is it that the author chose to end the story with the irony of the boys being rescued in the end by savageness instead of the civilization that has been promoted throughout the story? What is the significance of Ralph's last image of the island as being "scorched uo like dead wood", which was very different from the start of the novel, when it was a paradise?
Michael:
"Roger sharpened a stick at both ends." The book never really explains what this quote means. What does it mean? Symbolic meaning? Literal meaning?
I think the quote means that Roger is a complete savage. A spear sharpened at both ends is much deadlier than a spear sharpened only at one end, for one can use the spear to attack with both ends. To sharpen both ends of a spear means you really want to hurt or kill something with the weapon, as you are maximizing its effectiveness. Roger is no longer the boy who "aims to miss" but is now a boy who aims to kill.
Jasmine - "Ralph wept for the end of innocence, the darkness of man's heart, and the fall through the air of the true, wise friend called Piggy." I think Ralph cries because he realizes and see the other side of human beings. Other than the peaceful and knowledgeable side, humans also have a dark and evil side. He sees the process of changing from good to evil. The process of bringing out the dark side of everyone when civilization/order is lost. Every one of them has wild side because of our ids. We crave for certain things that might not necessarily be good things. Our ids are balanced out when our superego, or the things society teaches us is present. Society teaches us that violence is bad. Sexually related things are bad (for younger people). Without society to control us, our id takes over and things go wild. This is what becomes of Jack and his savages at the end. I think this is what Ralph has witnessed in his time on the island - the process of dehumanization. And the impact of being saved after the hell-like experiences he has endured is also a small part of the reason why he cries.
The question I have is – what do you think happens to Jack? I think the fact that he immediately switches from his savage and mindless form to an innocent, quiet boy when he sees the naval officer is interesting. What do you think makes him so quiet all of a sudden? Is it because he realizes he is no longer in control? Or is he just too astounded upon seeing the officer? (rescued finally)
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