Monday, October 13, 2008

Please post your response for Chapter 5

92 comments:

Silver Swordsman said...

It is clearly seen in this chapter that Jack is breaking away from reality--the madness of hunting has overcome the need for rescue. While we may see Jack as the representation of utter chaos and anarchy, we see Ralph as the voice of civilization and reason. It is evident that Ralph is fighting a losing battle from here on, but is there anything that Ralph can do to stop or slow Jack's intentions?

Jennifer Tang said...

Piggy remains the only fully rational character during the assembly and afterward. Piggy is the only boy who categorically dismisses the idea of a beast on the island, and he even reassures the generally unwavering Ralph on this point. It is Piggy who realizes that the boys' fear is the only danger that they truly face so long as they have enough food to survive, and even this fear proves no actual threat to them. Still, the outcast Piggy once again is ignored in favor of lurid tales of beasts and ghosts; although he is consistently correct in his judgments, Piggy is continually ignored. He raises the important question of whether the boys wish to act like humans, savages, or animals. Once again, Ralph and Piggy exemplify civilized human order, while Jack represents a brutal anarchy that may devolve into animal behavior.
The conflict between Jack and Ralph, with Piggy as his ally, reaches a breaking point in this chapter. Although Jack initially dismisses the idea of a beast on the island, he comes to accept the idea when they conceive of the beast as an enemy that his hunters may kill. Jack continues to be an aggressive and destructive force. He again physically threatens Piggy, foreshadowing the eventual violent conflict between the two boys, and he even manipulates the young boys' fear of monsters and ghosts. During the assembly Jack fully abandons the rules and codes of society. He promotes anarchy among the boys, leading them on a disorganized hunt for an imaginary beast. While Ralph is appointed leader for his calm demeanor and rationality, Jack gains his authority from irrationality and instinctual fear, manipulating the boys into thinking that there may be a dangerous creature that they should hunt. This behavior is dangerous; Ralph concludes that a focus on hunting will prevent them from ever leaving the island and seal their fate as no more than animals.

Richard Sun said...

Weifan:

Ralph has completely lost his power and control over the boys on the island. Starting from the time that Jack painted his face, Jack has become more and more dehumanized. It is because Jack thinks he can hide from fault and responsibility behind his mask. At the end, when Ralph wants to have a meeting, there is nobody who is excited about it. Before then, the boys would get excited when they heard they were going to have a meeting. Page 93:

“I ought to give up being chief. Hear ‘em.”
“Oh lord! Oh no!”
Piggy gripped Ralph’s arm.
“If Jack was chief he’d have all hunting and no fire. We’d be here till we died.

At the end of chapter five, Ralph knows that he has lost his leadership of the group. All the boys have lost order within them, and they have become what prehistoric humans would be. This is mainly led by Jack, and Ralph knows that he does not have as much power as Jack has over the group now. Jack will only satisfy his wishes, which is hunting and not maintaining a signal fire. Ralph has lost his power over the group, and there is nothing that Ralph would do that can stop Jack.

Richard Sun said...

At the end of Chapter five, the conch has lost its power to the right to speak and authority. When Piggy holds the conch, Jack always tells Piggy to shut up. Does the conch still have any importance or symbolism in the story?

Jerry Yeh said...

Q: what is the relationship between Ralph’s hair and his misbehavior in self disciplinary in emotion? And about the boy’s hair? “With a convulsion of the mind… At the he began to trot.”

Diane Lee said...

""You! What were you mucking about in the dark for?"
Simon grabbed the conch convulsively.
"I wanted - to go to a place - a place I know."
"What place?"
"Just a place I know. A place in the jungle."" (85)

Why does Simon run off by himself? What does he do when he's in his secret hideout? Is he taking a break from the savagery of Jack and the hunters? Simon doesn't seem inclined to join them, ""Who's that sitting there?" "Me. Simon." "Fat lot of good we are," said Ralph. "Three blind mice."" (93) Maybe Simon's just more of a introvert, or maybe he just likes that childish thrill of having a secret hideout that no one knows about. Why does he go there?

demi said...

weifan:
I don't think there is actually anything Ralph can really do to stop Jack now. Jack has already won over most of the kids by tempting them with the idea of "living your life now" instead of "living for the future". Jack has brought the idea of "who cares about rules" into the kids' heads, which is turning the island into chaos, with everyone doing things their own way. All of the things Jack did is hard to take back, because little kids don't think about the future, they don't care about the future, they think about living a good life now, which is what Jack is offering. And because they don't care for the future, it is hard for Ralph to tempt them back into following Ralph's rules, and that will leave the group in utter chaos.


My question:
Why is Ralph all of the sudden thinking so differently/deeply? Is his mind maturing? Or is it because of something else? For example "he found himself understanding the wearisomeness of this life, where every path was an improvisation and a considerable part of one's waking life was spent watching one's feet" and he wondered "if faces were different when lit from above or below-- what was a face? what was anything?"

Diane Lee said...

To Weifan: No, I don't think so. They probably won't run out of pigs, and they won't suddenly want to quit hunting. It's much too "fun", with the whole jumping around dancing howling ritual. Besides, they have nothing else to do. Hunting's good sport. And Jack will remain the blood-thirsty, violent, impulsive, rude Jack that he turned into after his hunting spree. By how easy the littluns fall into the dehumanized state - it's all too easy, and how Jack leads them into chaos, it's hard to see them finding reason and listening to Ralph again. "The world, that understandable and lawful world, was slipping away. Once there was this and that; and now - and the ship had gone." (91) It's probably easier for humans to go back than to move on. I don't think Ralph has much hope in getting the littluns back.

Jerry Yeh said...

Richard: before, the conch symbolizes the right and authority to speak and the civilization of the boys. But now, it symbolizes the lost of self discipline of the boys, it symbolizes the savageness of human nature as well. But you can expect that by the end, the boys are going to regain this conch as the symbolism of civilization.

Richard Sun said...

Jerry: I think the conch is going to get lost or broken by the end of the story. It has no use anymore.

Kimberly Hsieh said...

Weifan:
The littluns want food, and Jack can actually give them food other than fruits, so I think that Jack has won at that part. However, about beling civilized, Ralph seems to be the one who is more civilized, but what other than meetings and a few ideas show that?

My Question:
What is the author trying to tell us when the author says that Ralph being frustrated with his long mangy hair other than just being there for a long time? [I think it has something to do with him being sad about how Jack is taking the leader place?]

Response:
Jack is clearly taking the whole hunting-for-a-pig thing too seriously. However, I think that Ralph is also taking the whole everybody-needs-to-be civilized thing too seriously, because he wants everybody to use the designated toilet area. Telling everybody to build the shelters, gather fruit and drinking water, and keep the signal fire going are reasonable things to tell the people to do, but even telling everyone to go to the chosen toilet area is going overboard. It seems like he’s using his power that he no longer really has (because Jack has the power [because he provides meat and he says that if the beast comes out from the ocean during night time then he and his hunters will kill it]). Near the end of chapter five, Ralph doesn’t call Jack and his hunters back when they leave. I think this is because Ralph doesn’t want to blow the conch and have them not reply and just walk away. That will show more of how he doesn’t hold that much power anymore and it would be embarrassing.

Robert 9b said...

"And you shut up! Who are you, anyway? Sitting there telling people what to do. You can't hunt, you can't sing-"

Jack apparently could not stand the leadership of Ralph, he started to rebel and to take power into his hands. Do you think Ralph is a good leader?

Albert Liang said...

“Once more that evening Ralph had to adjust his values. Piggy could think. He could go step by step inside that fat head of his, only Piggy was no chief. But Piggy, for all his ludicrous body, had brains. Ralph was a specialist in thought now, and could recognize thought in another.” Pg. 78
Once Ralph thought about this line, what came to mind was the fact that now the chief has respected Piggy. The intelligence makes up for the appearance. Sadly, most of the others do not recognize this talent. Also, Ralph seems to be unpleased that Piggy’s head is smart and more mature, for he calls his head “fat head.” Ralph also seems to have much hubris and is still thinking that all is under him that is the best through this quote. At the end, do you think that Piggy is and will be more respected, and even become chief through other people’s understanding of his intelligence?
Albert Liang 9B

Albert Liang said...

Robert: I think in terms of jack, Ralph is a bad leader, doing nothing. But Ralph is doing much of the behind the scenes jobs, the dirty work that the others do not want to do. Also, the chief slowly understands the feelings of others. At the end, i do think that Ralph is a good leader (But Piggy is a better one).

Bess ku said...

"Too many things." There came a muter of agreement. Ralph overrode them....There was a row immediately. Boys stood up and shouted and Ralph shouted back (81)

Are the boys losing their trust in Ralph? Will they no longer see him as their leader and turn to Jack instead, because he's the meat provider?

Jennifer Tang said...

Question: Will the people eventually realize the importance of what Piggy says? Does Ralph depend on Piggy? how? What would happen if Piggy is no longer there to help Ralph?

reuben wong said...

Ralph keeps boasting about how he will expunge the very existence of the vile beast still lurking in the island but I feel that this cockiness might lead to his downfall. He boasts that he has the ability to crush the beast as if it were nothing and that the monster was of little significance. However in many cartoons and movies you see someone boast and they eventually end up in sticky situations. So will Ralph be finished by the beastie or does he actually have the skill to take it on.

Jerry Yeh said...

richard: without civilization, the boys are going to break apart, in another word, at least someone has to die. or the story was settled with a tragedy may be possible as well. but i assume that ralph is going to regain the conch.

Jennifer Tang said...

Kimberly Hsieh- Ralph's concern about his appearance, and particularly his grown-out hair, indicate his natural inclination towards the conventions of civilization. Although Ralph demonstrates a more than sufficient intellect, he also worries that he lacks Piggy's genius.

Richard Sun said...

Jerry:

The conch has no use in the story anymore. Why would Ralph want to regain the conch? If he wanted to regain power and authority, I don't think that is really possible.

Anonymous said...

In response to Demi:

I think Ralph is starting to be a more mature and capable leader and finally understanding the implications of being a leader. Not only is he starting to have a solid plan of development, he is also trying to establish a sense of order. Additionally, using techniques such as repeating words and saying things slowly are skills of a seasoned speaker. This shows a form of mental progression/maturing from when he first came to the island. Not only is he starting to think of long term implications but also of the direct application and effect it may have on them. It is definite that Ralph is more mature than when he first came.

In terms of the quote:

"he found himself understanding the wearisomeness of this life, where every path was an improvisation and a considerable part of one's waking life was spent watching one's feet" and he wondered "if faces were different when lit from above or below-- what was a face? what was anything?"

I think it shows how he is beginning to understand how life is not just a simple path that is without twist and turns. This shows how is is realizing what kinda of threat Jack poses and how he is returning to a form of savage barbarism from a more civilized culture. When he says "one's waking life was spent watching one's feet" it could mean that when you live, your mostly thinking about how to live it and where to go and stuff ahead of you but not necessarily how things will affect you and etc. This may show Jack's mentality in the sense that he is just looking at where he is stepping right now rather than future prospects. Right now, he is returning to a form of savage barbarism where all he would care about is eating and sleeping. This shows how he is unwilling to deal with more important issues such as leaving the island.

The part when Ralph asks himself "if faces were different when lit from above or below-- what was a face? what was anything" is even more interesting in the sense that he is questioning human nature and "civilized" culture. What he may be asking is if faces are different under different lighting (environments), what is the face? in this sense, he is asking that what does civilization, order and law mean in a different setting where none of this exist, in this sense the island. In a more direct sense, this quote also shows the dehumanization of the people, how in a different setting, everybody changes. One may even question what defines humans in an environment where none of these set taboos and quasi definitions exist? Maybe they change from place to place, maybe it's just a perception, an ideal. Without a central authority or force, humans merely return to a state where they are not far apart from animals.

=-=-=-=-=-=-

My question: on p. 94 it states in the last paragraph that "A thin wail out of the darkness chillled them and set them grabbing for each other. Then the wail rose, remote and unearthly, and turned to an inarticulate gibbering. Percival Wemy Madison, of Vicarage, Harcourt St. Anthony, lying in the long grass, was living through circumstances in which the incantation of his address was powerless to help him." What would the significance of this be? could it be foreshadowing? or a just a symbolic reference to a kind of return to savageness away from all hopes of society?

Jerry Lee said...

reuben- I still think Ralph is a better leader than jack. Jack's aiming on the beast, while ralph is trying to get the boys to follow the rules so they could be more united. But they ARE free. They could just run away if they want because their parents aren't here. I think Ralph can take it, but yes, he still needs help from piggy because to me, piggy's the smartest in the group

Bess ku said...

Albert: I don't think Piggy is going to be respected by the other boys just because of his intelligence. In the beginning, the boys picked Ralph to be their chief because of his looks, and they teased Piggy about his. They still teased him, when he was explaining his theory about the beasts on the island.
Also, I don't think the boys, especially the younger ones would want to have more "plans to be rescued." They didn't care about their fire, their only rescue sign for ships, right now what they want is more meat, so they might eventually look to Jack as their new leader.

Tyng-Yih Lin said...

For the first time throughout the story, Ralph lost his power to command any of the children. They spoke whenever they wanted, and did whatever they wanted “At once the platform was full of noises and excitement, scrambling, screams, and laughter. The assembly shredded away and became a discursive and random scatter from the palms to the water and along the beach, beyond night sight.” (91). After he lost his power, Piggy advised him to blow the conch, which made me wonder why Ralph didn’t follow Piggy’s advice and blow the conch? That way, he might have got the children under control again. Instead he chose to leave the kids alone because of numerous fears “If I blow the conch and they don’t come back, then we’ve had it. We shan’t keep the fire going. We’ll be like animals. We’ll never be rescued.” (92). And for the first time, Ralph was so depressed that he was willing to give up being chief “I ought to give up being chief”. He needed the encouragement of Piggy to restore his confidence.

Jerry Lee said...

the boys' fear of the beast ruined ralph's plan. Jack stated that he would hunt the beast down (though we're not sure that if there is 1), so it could erase the fear from them. Does the beast symbolized anything?
i think that the beast symbolized both the terror and the allure of the primordial desires for violence, power, and savagery that lurk within every human soul.

Tyng-Yih Lin said...

Reuben: I don't think that Ralph actually says that he has the ability to kill the beast. I think he said that the beast doesn't exist. And Jack also claims that there is no beast on the island "There aren't any beasts to be afraid of on this island." (82)

Haley Lan said...

Jack is becoming more than more savage. Now, he even wants to hunt and kill the beast. Doesn't he wants to go back to the civilisation? Or he wants to stay at the island?

Jerry: I think the beast symbolize the savageness at the island, because of the lack of civilizations. Also it symbolizes the fear of the children.

Kathy C. said...

I’ve been alone. By myself I went, thinking what’s what. I know what we need. An assembly to put things straight. And first of all, I’m speaking.”

Ralph was trying to tell everyone that they’ve had a lot of assemblies, but they never get things done. In this chapter, Ralph matures and becomes more and more serious about being rescued. The conch slowly loses its importance since Jack always tells Piggy to be quiet. When Jack says, “ So this is a meeting to find out what’s what…” He tries to take the leadership out of Ralph’s hand to make people want him as their leader instead of Ralph. Later they talk about the beast, I think the beast stimulates fear in them, which makes more afraid of it, but at the same time curious about it.


Questions:
Are the assemblies losing their importance, since no one wants to listen? What would happen if Ralph had given up hope of being rescued?

When Ralph said, “But he’s, he’s, Jack Merridew!” and Piggy said, “ I been in bed so much I’ve done some thinking. I know about people. I know about me. And him. He can’t hurt you: but if you stand out of the way he’d hurt the next thing. And that’s me.”
What is Piggy trying to say?

Amy Chan said...

"…I know there is no beast - not with claws and all that, I mean - but I know there isn’t no fear, either."
Piggy paused.
"unless -
"Ralph moved restlessly.
"Unless what?"
"Unless we get frightened of people."

I think this quote is significant because I think it symbolizes/foreshadows what is going to happen next. When Piggy
begins on talking about being frightened of humans, I think he’s got a point. All throughout the novel, Golding indicates that the children are becoming savage or beast like. I assume that at the end of the novel, the children will have transformed into an “awesome stranger”, someone who nobody can recognize, including themselves. Is there really a beast lurking in the jungle? Or is it just Simon, wandering around
at night? Why is the disscussion of the “Beast” so important to them?

Dawn Chen said...

What is the symbolism of Phil's dream? Did he really see a shape, enlarged by his fear? Or was it all in a dream? Also, what exactly caused his dream? I know all the littleuns have been worried about the beast, but he's the first person to actually admit having a dream about the "beastie." Has the fear of the littleuns increased to a greater extent now?

Robert: I think Ralph has the potential to be a good leader, but his power is disrupted by the rebellious Jack. Ralph tries to restore order and make everything organized, but Jack stands against him. However, I still think Ralph is a good leader, because he is sensible and tries to think about what is useful. However, i think he should also listen to Piggy, whose suggestions have some merit.

Adam Jian said...

Diane: I think Simon was outside at night because “he was taken short”, in another word, he had to go to the bathroom. When Jack said this, Simon was a little bit humiliated, so it might be true that Simon simply went out just to use the bathroom. Simon’s different from the others and he seemed to know something that the other boys don’t. Maybe he even know more then the secret hiding place. I think Simon feels more at home in the jungle then with Jack and the others because he’s not scared of the jungle but is a little bit frightened by Jack. I don’t think Simon is an introvert or a childish boy with childish feelings, he just likes the nature better and don’t really seem to be afraid of the snake-thing.

Robert 9b said...

Chuni:
I think that it shows that everyone is starting to turn savage, barbaric. Everyone wanted to hunt and no one wanted to get rescued anymore. The thin wail that they heard was like the barbaric sounds that primitive people made. As the wail rose, it sounded like gibberish as if they were barbarians that spoke weird languages. The three children, Ralph, Simon, and Piggy, were the only ones that wanted to maintain the civilization, and when they heard the barbaric sounds, they were scared that they won’t be able to get rescued.
As for the second part of the quote, I think that it shows that the littleuns’ fear of the existence of the beast has grew stronger because of Jack’s manipulation. In this chapter, Jack kept hinting the existence of the beast which made the littleuns feel more terrified.
I think that this paragraph summarizes the entire chapter.

Kristen Wu said...

“For a long time there was silence and no apparent movement. Then Ralph peered into the gloom and made out the hands. He spoke flatly.
‘I see.’
The world, that understandable and lawful world, was slipping away. Once there was this and that; and now—and the ship had gone.” –William Golding Lord of the Flies page 90~91


The civilized world seems quite different from what is happening on the island now, is it? These boys, who are supposedly educated in the ways of the “civilized,” have become rather wild. The dehumanization of the hunters, especially Jack, seems like a significant warning of what will happened to the rest of the boys. Apparently, Ralph begins to realize, as he walks along the beach and thinks, that if he didn’t put things straight, they would all turn into “animals.” Out of all the children, only Piggy, who was the only one who thought of the future beforehand, and Ralph, who is slowly beginning to comprehend the nightmare descending on them. Simon seems to understand that something is out of place, and seeks comfort by going off on his own to his secret hideout and getting away from the rest of the kids. When Ralph asks, “Who thinks there may be ghosts?” and hands were raised, everything in the scientific and rule-by-rule world is shattered. They are out of control, reckless, disorganized, and fearful.

After the ship leaves and the children become a disorganized lot, do you think that they will still be rescued eventually? Do you think that they will want to be rescued, or will they be too wild to accept civilization’s rules and laws then?

Ted L. said...

Like I've mentioned before, I think these kids, especially Ralph, is maturing at an extremely fast rate. On page 76, the first paragraph reveals Ralphs personal thoughts. If someone does not know the actual age of Ralph, these thoughts could easily be mistaken for the thoughts of an adult. The fact that Ralph realizes he is a leader, and that he needs to regain his authority is something remarkable, i think. For someone his age to be able to do that, is not easy. Also, on page 80, it said "Piggy held out his hands for the conch but Ralph shook his head. His speech was planned, point by point." This proves his determination in making his point, and his authority as a leader.
Can anyone else back it up or argue against it?

Frank 9B said...

Ralph has good points and bad points in being leader. Ralph understands leadership and fairness a bit better than Jack, but he still teases some people such as Piggy. Ralph is a good leader in how he knows when something must be told and when things must be set straight. “This meeting must not be fun, but business.” He is able realize that they were spreading apart, what they were doing, wrong, and has the responsibility in trying to correct them. But he isn’t a bright leader when compared to Piggy. Piggy knows what had to be done and would have been a much better leader than Ralph or Jack if only he processed more courage or wits. Overall, Ralph is not a bad leader, but he is starting to lose his leadership when Jack starts trying to take it away from him. Jack is better leader in how he is physically capable of hunting and forcing others to do what he commands. Ralph is a better leader when he realizes that the number one priority was getting off the island by sending fire signals to a distress call. Overall, Ralph is a better leader in knowing what is important. Jack is a better leader in survival, while Piggy is the best leader because of his knowledge of knowing what is right from wrong.

What exactly is Simon trying to say when he said "Maybe there is a beast... Maybe it's only us." (89) Is Simon trying to infer that they are starting to fear each other instead of this imagineray beast. Or is Simon infering that they are scared of the beast within the kids, espically Jack?

Sandra said...

kimberly- I think that Ralph is frustrated because his hair makes him look savage, but he wants to be civilized and look civilized.

Adam Jian said...

Why did Simon stay with Ralph?

“’Me, Simon.’
‘Fat lot of good we are,’ said Ralph. ‘three blind mice. I’ll give up.’” pg.93

Why didn’t Simon join Jack along with all the other except Piggy? Why did Simon still wants Ralph to be chief?

“Simon stirred in the dark.
‘Go on being chief.’” pg.93

Elissa Lee said...

Robert - I doubt Ralph is the perfect idea of a leader. He's still young, only 12, and learning. He certainly has the image of one - judging by his first appearance, the littluns had voted him chief over Jack. However, there are several things Ralph needs work on as a leader. For one, he should stop saying "I'm chief and what I say is right", which promotes a sense of annoyance and protest from others, especially Jack. Also, he should somewhat value more of others' thinking: such as Jack's, as he is more prone to rebel against Ralph - which he somewhat does, in this chapter. He rebels against the rules that Ralph has set: speaking out of turn and telling Piggy to shut up. I think if Ralph had some experience and time, he'd work his way up to being a better leader. Now - he only has the face of one, and an advisor to boot - no, not really.

Jenny: I think, in a way, Jack has already realised how reasonable and smart Piggy's ideas really are. He's probably somewhat jealous of Piggy's smart ideas, but he doesn't want to take them because Piggy would be rather smug. Also, I don't really think he takes being rescued and being civilised that much anymore, so they really don't care about what ideas Piggy has: the fire, the sun dial, etc. Also, one of the ideas that have been carried out, the fire for one, has caused Jack to get in trouble with Ralph.

Yes, I do think Ralph depends on Piggy. Everything Ralph says is said on advice given to him from Piggy. Though it doesn't really matter anymore now - they have lost most of the control of the kids there, especially the hunters, and everything is getting all chaotic.

I think Ralph and Jack both have a lot to learn about leadership. Although Ralph's way is a lot less violent and tyrannical, he still says things reminiscent of "I'm chief. I'm right. Do what I say.", yet because there's no force in what he says, nor does he do it diplomatically - not only does it make people hate what he says, but not do it either. Jack, on the other hand, is very forceful and brutal in his words, and gets things done, however mean it gets. Usually this would not appeal to many people, to have such a leader, but Jack has the one thing Ralph fails to comply to, and that is meat, and the thrill of hunting it down.

I think who you would want to follow - Ralph or Jack, really depends on what you want. If you really want to be rescued, then you'd follow Ralph no matter what. If you are starving for meat and a little fun of hunting pigs, then you'd go for Jack. All in all, the meat appeals to most of the kids on the island.

Simon seems to confuse me a lot. He's rather helpful throughout the first few chapters - he is one of the two people who actually help to finish the huts, he seems kind to the littluns, and in this chapter, he tells Ralph to 'go on being chief' and he, too, longs for rescue and adults, yet he doesn't seem to fit in either category: with the crazed, primitive hunters or the voices of reason, Piggy and Ralph.

reuben wong said...

Yes, in the current situation I feel that Ralph is slowly losing power while Jack is honing in on the position of chief. Jack starts to show little respect for Ralph’s leadership and he starts becoming rebellious to Ralph’s rule.
“Jack! Jack! You haven’t got the conch! Let him speak.” Jack’s face swam near him. “And you shut up! Who are you, anway? Sitting there telling people what to do. You can’t hunt, you can’t sing---”
He is now starting to uncork the feelings that he had bottled up for the leadership of Ralph and the insignificance of organization. He even attacks Piggy and unleashes his anger telling him he’s an annoying and pompous person. The group he starts will be one with meat and power as its incentives.
Jack also begins to unveil his inner savage. By disregarding the rules he is starting to become more and more uncivilized and slowly falling into the state of an animal. With him slowly becoming a leader I feel that Ralph would be left in the dust because Jack has all the things that seem appealing to the kids but in reality it will just extend their time on the island. While Ralph actually thinks about what is needed but it doesn’t seem that attractive to the others.
I guess if I were in this situation I would also join Jack because he has what everyone wants, it may not be the best choice but it would probably seem like it. He also has a knife and some tough people so that is also something that I or any of the children would want to be up against. On Ralph’s side you have Piggy and no one seems to really look up to him so yes I feel that Jack is earning the loyalty of others and leaving Ralph in the dust.

Ted Wu said...

Are the boys losing their trust in Ralph? Will they no longer see him as their leader and turn to Jack instead, because he's the meat provider?

Answer: In Chapter 5, we can see the dramatic change in everyone on the Island except Piggy. Piggy still remains educated and civilized, however the other littluns and biguns are initiating to become more savage and are adapting to their new environment. Staying too long away from civilized world, the littluns and the biguns realize that there are no parents to look after for them; they are on their own to survive. Everyone votes Ralph as chief and obeys his rules at first, however as Ralph is busy telling them to build huts and keep the fire going on, they feel frustration from the heavy workload. (Pg. 81) There was a row immediately. Boys stood up and shouted and Ralph shouted back. These actions in the assembly can show the mutiny and revolt against the Ralph. The littluns and biguns started to distrust Ralph’s ability of fulfilling their desire to be free and happy on the island. In my opinions, I think Ralph is in great danger of losing his position of chieftain, because the people knows that being rescued is a small chance so they lose hope. They rather live happily; singing, eating meat, and hunting everyday. Jack is their perfect candidate, because Jack provides meat to them, it fulfills their stomach. Ralph only provides crabs and fruits, which sometimes cause diarrhea. From the days Ralph was selected as the chief, Jack is humiliated and inside his mind, he is waiting for a chance to rebel against Ralph so he could be the leader. Now, it is the time. (Pg 91)
“And you shut up! Who are you, anyways? Sitting there telling people what to do. You can’t hunt, you can’t sing—.”
Jack tries to convince indirectly to the other people that he is more capable than Ralph and they shouldn’t picked Ralph in the first place.


Question: How is Ralph and Piggy reliable to each other? What is Simon’s role in this chapter? Is he on Ralph’s side or Jack’s side? Or neutral? Explain. In Chapter 5, the division of groups started to be more obvious: hunters and hut builders. How are the groups going to resolve their conflict?

James Moh said...

Chuni:
I think the reason Percival says this is because he was taught to say this if he was ever lost or needed help. I think he memorized his address and other information so if he was ever in danger, he could ask adults for help. But the thing is, that on this island, there are no adults and no one to help them. That's why the quote says that they were in a circumstance that the incantation of his address couldn't help him. His address was completely useless.

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My question is, as the children talked about the beast and whether or not it exists, Simon seemed to have thought of something, but never really got the chance to say it. What do you think he meant by what he said? Is Simon right?

Silver Swordsman said...

Richard,
Looking at the shell in particular, a conch can be used to summon someone from a long distance by its distinct sound. In the sense of power, in which only the person who holds it possesses the right to speak, we can easily see that Jack and the others have already started to ignore the rules. (“Bollocks to rules!”) A good question. Diamond jewelry may be valuable in today’s markets, but after Apocalypse and Armageddon, I don’t think that such things will be of much worth—they are artistic. Representations of wealth and power in a civilized world are objects that are very well crafted or made of very rare or hard-to-procure materials. But such things cannot save your life in the case of danger. Examine the samurai swords. These razor-sharp swords are a symbol of Asian craftsmanship, but they were only valuable to the warriors of the feudal Japanese era because of their ability to kill and defend. At the end of the line, when mankind dissolves into utter anarchy and chaos, true importance only arrives at the capability to defend. Who would care about the golden hilt and silver blade if it couldn’t sever a neck? If it was a good weapon, it is valued. If a club studded with nails works better at ending lives, then that is more valued. What good is a horn if no one listens to you? In the end, that is what it boils down to. Yes, the conch still has some significance as of now. Its beauty would only be admired on today’s markets, but not in a rowdy troupe of boys. It’s useful as it could summon everyone on the island. However, if Ralph is the possessor of the conch, and no one is on his side, it is not of any value at all. Perhaps Ralph will drop it one day in exchange for a spear, who knows?

Elissa Lee said...

Ted L: I agree that Ralph is maturing a lot faster, you can see all his thoughts and reflections. He is getting older, but I don't really think he's maturing in terms of how to lead them. He has ideas from Piggy, and he knows what to say, but he doesn't have the ability to get the people to follow what he says.

Also, what about the other kids? You mentioned that they are maturing quickly too. I don't think they are - Piggy seems the same, always talking reasonably but annoyingly, Jack seems even more dehumanised and primitive, the other choir boys seem to follow his example, and there is naught mentioned about the littluns. I think Ralph is the only one maturing, thoughtwise.

Kristen Wu said...

Albert: I do not think Piggy will become chief. His looks are not suited for a leader, because he looks like someone who can be teased and angered easily with a bit of provoking. The rest of the boys continuously disrespect him. They treat him as an annoying person who constantly tells them that they should do something the other way. People don’t understand his intelligence; they mock it.

Stanley Su said...

Demi & Weifan : I agree with Demi. Ralph has pretty much lost all his power over the kids. Jack provides the food and the fun and that is all the kids want at the moment. There still immature and still dont know what is best. And Ralph presents work which the kids definitely do not want and he sets up rules that the kids do not want to abide by.
However, I would definitely follow Jack because Ralph is assuming that they would get rescued in a short amount of time which is a very small chance and Jack is providing food, meat, and possibly surviving on the island. Consequently, Jack only thinks about hunting and not about shelter and water. There are definitely a lot of pros and cons about Jack and Ralph. I would choose Jack who would you choose?

angela chou said...

Is the beast real, or just an object of imagination? If it is imaginary, why do they fear it so much?

Unknown said...

In this chapter, Jack continues to strip Ralph of his power by manipulating the kids' fear of the "beast." When the little ones refuse to be convinced that there is no beast, Jack says, "We're strong-we hunt! If there's a beast, we'll hunt it down! We'll close in and beat and beat and beat-! (91)" This, along with the meat from the pig he killed in Chapter 4, won everyone over to Jack's side. Only the smarter ones, Piggy and Simon, remained on Ralph's side. At this point, Jack has become more powerful than Ralph. Knowing this, Ralph loses confidence and refuses to gather everyone again. On page 93, Piggy says "[Jack] can't hurt you, but if you stand out of the way he'd hurt the next thing. And that's me." This foreshadows that what's happening right now is only the beginning. I think soon Jack will use violence again to hurt Ralph, Piggy, and Simon unless they agree to follow him.

Carol Chou said...

Do you think Jack will end up being the chief instead of Ralph? Will Jack be the new leader? Do the kids like Jack more? I think at this point, the kids like Jack more. Ralph is always talking about how to get people to rescue them, while Jack is trying to make life fun on this island. After Jack tormented Piggy, he ran away and all the kids ran after him leaving Ralph, Piggy, and Simon alone. So I think that the kids like Jack more at this point.

Steven Chiang said...

The question of whether or not there is a beastie comes to mind when reading chapter 5. What is the beastie? Why does the author bring up both sides of the conflict about the beastie? About how the small boys think it’s real and the big kids think it is fear? And why is Simon starting to believe that there is a beastie too? Is the conflict about the beastie subject symbolizing something that is happening among the kids?

jasper luoh said...

Bess:
The boys are starting to lose their trust in Ralph. They obviously don't trust him as much as they did in the beginning of the story, when all he had to do was say something and it would be done. Now, it is much harder for him to get everyone to pay attention. "He had learnt as a practical business that fundamental statements like this had to be said at least twice, before everyone understood them." Although the text says before everyone understands, in this case i think that it really means before they actually listen. Ralph needs to keep repeating things over and over again to impress their importance on the littluns and the hunters. I think that they no longer see him as the more worthy leader because to them, all that Ralph has been doing is calling assemblies and telling them what to do, and then helping with the tasks. Jack, on the other hand, seems to be trying extremely hard to catch a pig. The littluns think that he is trying to catch one to feed all of them, and Jack obviously won't go against this view. When he finally does bring meat, everyone starts to believe that he is a better leader because he is feeding them with meat, whereas Ralph has been giving them nothing but fruits and vegetables. They are ravenous for the meat, and even Piggy, who dislikes Ralph, asks for some of the meat. When Piggy asks for the meat, that shows when Jack has complete control over the whole tribe, necessitating Ralph's call for an assembly.

Question
In the story, Golding makes continued references to Ralph's hair. "With a convulsion of the mind...and understood how much he dislike perpetually flicking the tangled hair out of his eyes..." What does Ralph's hair symbolize? Is there any relation to the reference made to Piggy's hair? Why do you think Golding uses Ralph and Piggy's hair the way he does?

Carol Chou said...

Sean: I agree with you Jack is definitely taking control over Ralph and the kids. He won by killing the beasts and hunting the pig. At this point, everybody is going to like Jack more than Ralph because Jack is more fun while Ralph is just trying to get rescued. I agree that this foreshadows the violence coming up later on in the story.

Daisy Huang said...

Diane~
I think that Simon goes to his secret hiding place because maybe he wants to get away from all that savagness and like fights and other bad stuff that goes around on the island. Maybe to him its like a place where he can relax.

Question:
Why are they so scared of maybe having a beast on the island? Why wont some other people on the island believe that their might be a big beast?

Andy Hsu said...

ROBERT:
No, I don’t think Ralph is a good leader. He is expecting too much from the boys. They are only boys, and they never had experience with living on their own. All of the boys lived with a parent; they relied on their parent for many things. “We’re all drifting and things are going rotten. At home there was always a grownup. Please, sir; please, miss; and then you got an answer. How I wish!”(94)
If Ralph took some time and talked to each of the boys and was friendlier towards them, then he would probably gain more cooperation. As a leader, Ralph should try to make everybody settled down, and try to prevent disputes to happen. Ralph has failed to do so, which is the main reason why he’s losing control among the boys. An ex “And you shut up! Who are you, anyway? Sitting there telling people what to do. You can’t hunt, you can’t sing.”(91)
---------
Is Ralph still the leader? Or did Jack take his place?

Anonymous said...

daisy: they are scared of the beast because they are afraid that something bad is going to happen. maybe get eaten or get attacked by the beast. some people do not believe the existence of the beastie because they think its impractical and unrealistic, or maybe because they think the kids are just dreaming and imagining the worst of the situation.

Kevin Lin said...

To Robert:
When Jack said "And you shut up! Who are you, anyway? Sitting there telling people what to do. You can't hunt, you can't sing-" in chapter 5, it is obvious that Jack does not trust Ralph anymore. Sooner or later, Jack would probably rebel and steal the seat of the chief; but he would have confidence, because he provides meat, while Ralph on the other hand is just a chosen leader that "gives orders that don't make any sense" and cannot even hunt or sing.
In my opinion, I think that Ralph would make a good leader, or at least a better one than Jack. Everything, or most of the things that Ralph says makes sense and are at least civilized. Jack, on the other hand, cares only about hunting and killing pigs. Like Ralph in the story had said, if Jack becomes the cheif, their hopes of getting rescued would be gone, because there wouldn't be any fire in the first place.
Like Albert had said before, "I do think that Ralph is a good leader (But Piggy is a better one)",I agree, but not to all. It is certainly true that Ralph would make a good leader, but it is not true that Piggy would be a better one. Even though Piggy is smart, he has not the social skills that Ralph has. If Piggy were made the leader, no one would listen to him, because he would just a be a fat piggy that gives out orders that doesn't make any sense.


Question:
When the littluns speak of beasts in the ocean and ghosts, it startled the whole group and scared them. Does this talk symbolize anything? Or is it just an event that the author made up just to make the story sound better.

angela chou said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
Steven Chiang said...

Reply to Carol: I think Jack might be the preferred leader, as you said in your question, but really, it depends on what the children want. “I was chief. I was chosen.” “Why should choosing make any difference? Just giving orders that don’t make any sense...” “Piggy’s got the conch.” (91) Jack seems to be able to be a leader, and he is the kind of leader that gets his followers what they want. But from the quote we see that he may not be a deep thinker. He will get people meat, but he would not think about how to get off the island or how to make shelters like Ralph does. Ralph, on the other hand, gives his followers what he thinks is the best, but he does not take in account of his followers’ desires. That is why he seems to be getting rejected recently. I think what they should do is to have Jack and Ralph work together as chiefs like when they just got onto the island. That way the children will get what they want and they will get what they need.

Jackie Yang said...

Robert: With the assistance of Piggy, I think Ralph is a good leader. He may not hunt or keep the fire going, but he deals with all the problems, or at least addresses them.

"And another thing. We nearly set the whole island on fire. And we waste time, rolling rocks, and making little cooking fires. Now i say this and make it a rule, because I'm chief. We won't have a fire anywhere but on the mountain. Ever. Because if you want a fire to cook fish or crab, you can jolly well go up the mountain."

By now, I think Ralph is really maturing. He is beginning to notice smaller dilemmas that everyone is too lazy to deal with, such as the log known as the twister. Also, he realizes he needs Piggy's assistance with leading these kids. Though Ralph himself is also becoming quite a thinker

angela chou said...

Bess
(Will they no longer see him as their leader and turn to Jack instead, because he's the meat provider?)
Weifan
(It is evident that Ralph is fighting a losing battle from here on, but is there anything that Ralph can do to stop or slow Jack's intentions?)


I think there might be, but it is impossible that he will stop Jack completely. The older ones crave hunting and all the bloodthirstiness that comes from it. Living on an island without rules and regulations is a new experience to them, and I don't think they regret the change in their behaviors from civilized to savage. When Jack had had his say about breaking the rules, "the platform was full of noise and excitement, scramblings, screams, and laughter." The boys clearly prefer Jack's carefree, adventurous way of life over their previous lifestyle. And although Jack treats the little ones with neither respect nor kindness, they are impulsive, and following everyone else seems like the right thing to do. Also, Jack provides the meat, and if you're hungry and meat is offered, you wouldn't much care what the conditions are.
The only thing Ralph can do now is to bring out the inner conscience of the boys and make them realize that the way they are acting is cruel and immoral, but since it seems like they're having a fine time, I think Ralph is fighting for a lost cause.

Allen said...

Ralph has lost control over the boys to Jack ever since he roasted the pig on the beach. Jack basically said there that everyone should do what he say, or else they wouldn’t get any pig. Also the thrill of the hunt attracted even more people to follow Jack; it is like skipping a boring class for Scouting. Ralph needs to do something very smart in order to "convince" the other boys to join him again, even over something as delicious as roasted pork. He could say that he killed the beast and to become a hero.






Jack and Ralph seemed to have mended their relationship again. Would Jack oppose Ralph again or remain as partners for the rest of the novel? Think about how Jack and Ralph became friends and then broke apart again in the beginning of the book.

Jackie Yang said...

"If faces were different when lit from above or below- what was a face? What was anything?"

What do you think causes the drastic change in Ralph's thinking? One day his mind is just as simple as those of the other kids on the island, and the next he's puzzling over life's mysteries. Was the evolution of his mind just one of the steps in maturity, or does something trigger it?

andrew said...

I think by this chapter Ralph has completely lost his place as leader of the group his conch has lost its purpose, his reasoning has been overcome by Jack and his fear and violence, his cruelty and savageness. Jack had enjoyed killing and wanted more his able to do things that Ralph could probably never have done. The children are probably now all loyal to him because of what he allows them to do instead working on shelters his hunters were swimming this shows the freedom Jack’s people have and instead of fruit he is able to provide meat so naturally people would follow him except those he had disrespected like piggy and in this chapters the little’uns. Others like jack’s ways for its lawless and more fun than what Ralph does. The only way Ralph can probably beat Jack is if they were rescued.

Is the Conch still what it was?

I think the conch has become a pointless object and has lost its power no longer does it allows the holder to speak freely.

“The rules” shouted Ralph “you’re breaking the rules!”
“Who Cares?”
Ralph summoned his wits.
“Because the rules are the only thing we’ve got!”
But Jack was shouting against him.
“Bullock to the rules!”

Now that Jack has stopped obeying the rules his hunters and followers will also most likely stop also, Jack and Ralph has started to disagree and fight each other, this foreshadows I think a conflict between Jack’s leadership and his hunter’s strength and Ralph’s leadership and piggy’s intelligence.

Anonymous said...

are the last few paragraphs on page 94 foreshadowing? are they doing to build a boat? will they receive a message from the grownups?

Nick said...

Question:
why does Raph want to give up? Like what Piggy if raph lets Jack go on, it doesn't only threaten Piggy, but also Raph? So why is Raph backing away? cowerdness?

Alice Chan said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
Alice Chan said...

“We have lots of assemblies. Everybody enjoys speaking and being together. We decide things. But they don’t get done. We were going to have water brought from the stream and left in those coconut shells under fresh leaves. So it was, for a few days. Now there’s no water. The shells are dry. People drink from the river.”

I think this quote tells us how savage and beast-like the children are becoming. They are losing their sense of civilization. Instead of drinking from coconut shells (as cups), they drink from the river.

It also shows that they don’t have a sense of unity. They are starting to fall apart—“But they don’t get things done.” They don’t want to work and cooperate.

Helen said...

Diane:
Simon personality differs from the other boys. He helped Ralph build the hut while everyone else was playing, he is kind and generous. When the littluns couldn't reach the fruits, he helped them, the other older boys would have ignored the littluns or would have tormented them. Simon personality is a large contrast between the boys, most of the boys are savages and are not kind. I think Simon escapes to his secret place because he doesn't want to deal with savagery. He wants a place where it belongs to him, where he can think.

Question:
" What i mean is ... maybe its only us"
- Simon page 89
Do you agree with Simon? Do u think its just their mind that tricking them to think that their is a beast.

Doris Lin said...

Response
“And you shut up! Who are you, anyway? Sitting there telling people what to do. You can’t hunt, you can’t sing --”
“I’m chief, I was chosen…Piggy’s got the conch…. The rules! You’re breaking the rules!
“Who cares?”
“Because the rules are the only thing we’ve got!”

I think this shouted argument between Jack and Ralph has several different meanings. First, examining the first line Jack shouts out, where he says, “You can’t hunt, you can’t sing--”, I think it shows that Jack still subconsciously clings onto the remnants of his former life. Of course, the accusation that Ralph doesn’t hunt shows Jack’s priority when on the island- on the island, hunting is, to him, the most important part of survival. However, the barb “you can’t sing” is a reminder to the beginning, when Jack was still ‘civilized’, and tried to assert his authority by saying, “I ought to be chief, because I’m chapter chorister and head boy. I can sing C sharp.” I think this reference shows that Jack hasn’t completely lost himself to savagery, and still holds on to the childish notion that special singing talents decides one’s authority. This goes to show that even though Jack may seem to become more and more savage, in the deepest part of his soul, he still retains his childish side that was molded by society from early age. No matter how he may turn out after a long time on the island, he’s still has a little bit of the arrogant, but companionable boy that explored the island with Ralph and Simon.

Secondly, Jack’s contempt and disregard towards the rules perhaps symbolizes his loosening grasp on sophistication- he is no longer as influenced by society pressure as before, when they first landed. However, Ralph, who insists on maintaining the rules, does not really know why he has to be adamant about the rules. All he knows is that the rules are the only that that keeps them in order, and keeps them in a human like society. Although he may not know why rules are so important, I think that it’s an unconscious instinct to try and mimic their society of children to the society of grownups that he saw at home.

Question: When Golding says “Ralph was a specialist in thought now, and could recognize thought in another” on page 78, is he being sarcastic, or is there a deeper meaning?

Alice Chan said...

bess: I think so. Since they have been stranded on the island for so long and had only fruits to eat, they might think Jack is more important and more like a leader because he is the meat provider.

Nick said...

To Wei-fan
While I believe that killing Jack is a good idea, meat and one troublemaker out of the way, also have you heard that 殺雞警猴.
While that might not work goodly.
While the other way is too do something to make people respect him, i believe that is the best way.

liang said...

gsxfmwIn response to Robert :
I think Ralph is a good leader. The fact that he is able to get the people to an assembly even after the mess Jack and his hunters have created proves my opinion. Imagine yourself as Ralph. Do you think you'd have the ability to get everyone to listen to your thoughts and have a discussion about the problems you guys have?

My Question :
Do you think the beastie is real? Jack, the ever impetuous one thinks not. He claims that there aren't any beasties on the island because he's BEEN everywhere on the island. Then again, Percival said the beastie came from the sea. That leaves me with doubt again. If its not on the island, it might be in the sea because so far, no one can prove that there isn't a monster lurking under those waters. "Daddy said they haven't found all the animals in the sea yet."
But. Piggy, the only sensible and rational member of their group dismisses the idea of a "beastie". Is Piggy right about this as he is about everything so far, or do the littluns really have a story to tell when they claim that there actually IS a "beastie".

My Response :
LOTF Chapter 5 Response
Many chaotic things happen in Chapter 5. Old problems start to worsen and new problems are form.
For example, in this chapter, we can see Jack’s obvious intention for causing trouble and his jealousy of Ralph’s position as the leader. We look deeper into Ralph’s thoughts about Piggy and Ralph’s effort in trying to make things work out for them. Lastly, new fears start to appear. The “littluns” claim there are beasts that appear in the dark but no one can prove that they are there. I think this chapter is just another more detailed look into the conflicts of the story, which makes up the rising action of the plot.
When Ralph finally brings the assembly into peace and order, the issue of maintaining the fire, hunting, and building the huts are raised. Chaos and disorder start to appear again. “Clamor rose at once…” Just when I thought Ralph had his people under control, the hunters start to bring trouble again. “There was a self-conscious giggling among the hunters, Ralph turned on them..”
Other than just signs of Ralph completely losing control over his people, the conflict between the hunters killing pigs and the people watching the fire is raised again. This time, the brawl gets bigger. “’You hunters! You can laugh! But I tell you the smoke is more important than the pig, however often you kill one. Do all of you see?’ He spread his arms wide and turned to the whole triangle.”
Then, after the old conflicts are brought up again, new ones are created. Unknown things start to appear. An atmosphere of fear and danger is created. “Things are breaking up. I don’t understand why. We began well; we were happy. And then –“. Even Ralph starts to notice this change in atmosphere, but he doesn’t know what’s causing it.
Just when they were getting to discussing about what the problem is, Jack, the impetuous, rash, and reckless member of the group causes trouble again. “So this is a meeting to find out what’s what… Anyway, you don’t hunt or build or help – you’re just a lot of cry-babies and sissies”.
Later on, towards the end of the chapter, the question I had earlier while I was reading was answered. Will Jack, in the end, express him jealousy about Ralph’s leadership? “Jack’s face swam near him. ‘And you shut up! Who are you, anyway? Sitting there telling people what to do. You can’t hunt, you can’t sing –’‘I’m chief. I was chosen.” This not only shows Jack’s savage side of him returning but is also the first direct challenge to Ralph’s authority. Another question appears now. What will happen in the end of the story?
In conclusion, I think Chapter 5 is the most chaotic and interesting chapter I’ve read so far. It is also the chapter that has the most foreshadowing – Jack’s challenge to Ralph’s authority, the fear of the unknown “beastie”, and also the overall crumbling of the group’s democratic and originally organized system.

Sandra said...

response:
In this chapter, the boys except for Simon, Piggy, and Ralph turn to Jack. Because Jack uses the beast as an advantage and says that his hunters will hunt the beast down, if there is a beast. The boys feel more secure to be with Jack because of his hunters. And because Jack has pig meat. The beast is what brings him to power, and what brings Ralph down. And when Jack disobeys the rules, you can tell that he is starting to rebel against Ralph's authority.
Does the beast have any significance in the story? Does the conch still have a meaning to it?

Amy Chan said...

Jenny-Will the people eventually realize the importance of what Piggy says? Does Ralph depend on Piggy? how? What would happen if Piggy is no longer there to help Ralph?

I don't think that Jack will realize the importance of what piggy says, but maybe the others will. Yes, I think Ralph relies on piggy a lot: ...I can't think. Not like Piggy. Piggy could think. He could go step by step inside that fat head of his, only Piggy was no chief. was what Ralph had thought. Besides Ralph, Piggy is the only one who is always trying to suggest ideas to help them improve their lives on this island and without his help, Ralph could not have kept order.

kimichen said...

The word “fire” gives and shows us the importance, symbolisms, and significant of this story. It shows us the feeling of power, and in other hand it shows us the children’s feeling about this island and the rescue thing. Here is my question, which meaning for fire is the right and the most important point in this story? Does it mean the children’s feeling about the island or the feeling and significant of power?

“Too many things.” – someone, page 81
In this sentence, we can understand easily that the children are more supporting Jack and feels very annoyed by Ralph. They think Ralph have too much things to say. All they are thinking about is the meat and pig, because in this condition they think more about meat and pigs that they can eat instead of fruits.
“But you’ve talked and talked!” – Jack, page 81
He is getting tired of Ralph talking and talking all the time. Jack is annoyed by Ralph, like the other children does. After that he talked about that these “beastie” thing is all caused by the liitluns, which he talks more like a chief than Ralph. He told everybody that there are no beasts, because he went around the forest, but he didn't see any beast. Which after when he was done, everybody gave him applause.

“Just a place I know. A place in the jungle.” – Simon, page 85
In this quote, I have noticed that Simon wants to be alone, so that place maybe where he wants to rest and be alone in. He might want to get out of these things, like Jack’s pig celebrations and Ralph’s idea of fire. I think he doesn't really want to get involve with.

In this chapter, I realize that the children are getting more and more separated, they all have their own thought, which causes an argument. Except for some littluns, they mostly follow Jack, because of the meat, pig.

Matthew Li said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
Matthew Li said...

Allen: Jack and Ralph seemed to have mended their relationship again. Would Jack oppose Ralph again or remain as partners for the rest of the novel? Think about how Jack and Ralph became friends and then broke apart again in the beginning of the book.

“They looked at each other, baffled, in love and hate. All the warm salt water of the bathing pool and the shouting and splashing and laughing were only just sufficient to bring them together again.” (page 55) In previous chapters, Jack and Ralph seemed to have sibling rivalry, both hating each other and loving each other at the same time. Sometimes they agree upon things, sometimes they don’t. “‘Who are you anyway? Sitting there telling people what to do. You can’t hunt, you can’t sing-’ ‘I’m chief. I was chosen.’” (Page 91) They support each other while at the same time looking for opportunities to bring the other one down. Their relationship and friendship was a turbulent one, with its ups and downs. I expect them to remain partners/rivals for the rest of the story, but neither ever gaining enough power to bring down the other.

“‘Fat lot of good we are,’ said Ralph. ‘Three blind mice. I’ll give up.’”
Why does Ralph all of the sudden decide that he wants to give up after all the effort he’d put in to establish organization and rules? Does it not make him feel regretful? Why does he think Jack hates Ralph? Does Jack really hate him?

kimichen said...

To Alice: I totally agree with you :) The children are more into the condition, the island. which it forms them to become more and more like savages.
Not only that but you can also see their own thoughts are developing at the same time, like Jack and Piggy. Because of their thoughts, they can easily cause arguments and they shout at each other all the time.

To Jenny: I like the way you think about that. I also think that not only they are scared of it, but they might feel insecure so they would feel scared. Also I agree with the point about Ralph and Piggy. :)

hannah chu said...

"And you shut up! Who are you, anyway? Sitting there telling people what to do.
You can't hunt, you cant sing---" Said Jack when he's fighting over the conch with Piggy.

When Jack said this, it's enough to tell us that Jack is exploding on not able to take
the chief chair. Jack even said i can hunt, and you can't, only telling people around to do
things. Jack has his point, but now, you can tell that he had gone out of control, too insane,
as if he had already become a wildman. A man that no longer takes the mind of a human,
and think like one, only thought of killing, and killing will make you satisfy and secure.
Ralph, on the other hand, is trying to keep everyone together, he had his point, but
he should focus a bit on hunting too. Jack at this point is trying to take over the leadership,
and as it is said at the end of the chapter, when everyone is doing what Jack said,
circling around each other and chanting the phrase Jack made it. That phrase has the
meaning of wildness, a phrase that only be used as if you are Indians. Now, it is hard
for Ralph to keep in the position as a chief, he had only two followers, Simon, and Piggy.
Jack got the rest of the kids, even the littluns. But over all, I believe Ralph will still be
a better leadership than Jack, Jack is too hard-headed, did not think before acting,
or trying to help people to be together, all he wants is power. Power to rule over
other people, such leadership will be tyranny, not democracy. Ralph at least
had the basics of basics, rules to be set to organize everyone, and two, to try to
keep everyone together and work to survive until when if they will be rescued.


Posting a question:
Who do you think are more suits for a cheif, Jack or Ralph? Why? And, the state that Jack is in right now, what can you foreshadow of this?

hannah chu said...

To Kimi:
I agree with what you said, I mean, I think meat is everything. The littluns knows, or at least could tell apart who seems stronger, Jack would be. Littluns are powerless, and they'll only follow the powerful one no matter if they like him or not.

Robert 9b said...

Kimi:
I think that the fire symbolizes the children’s willingness to get rescued. If there is the signal fire then it means that they want to get rescued. If the signal fire died, it shows that they are becoming barbaric.

Earlier in the story, when they had their first meeting, everyone was eager to get rescued. When they heard about making a signal fire, they hurried up to the mountain and started to set the fire. As time passed, they began to enjoy the life on the island. They wanted to kill pigs rather than keeping the fire going. Slowly, everyone became like Jack.

“The fire is the most important thing on the island. How can we ever be rescued except by uck, if we don’t keep a fire going? Is a fire too much for us to make?” Ralph said on page 80. At this point of the story, no one cared about the fire except for a few, all they wanted was to hunt. When Ralph explained how the fire was important, the hunters giggled as if they didn’t care if the fire was going on or not.

Kristin Kiang said...

RESPONSE:
“And you shut up! Who are you, anyway? Sitting there telling people what to do. You can’t hunt, you can’t sing --”

Jack can't stand the truth that he isn't the leader. Jack has a very dominant personality, and he likes to be the one who makes the rules, force people to do things...etc. The "evil" side of his personality is that he likes to make himself look better than other people. For example in the quote above, Jack says what he CAN do, but its NOT the things he can do that a leader has.
Ralph, for example, have charisma, integrity,some responsibility...etc. I think those are actual traits that a leader must have.

“I’m chief, I was chosen…Piggy’s got the conch…. The rules! You’re breaking the rules!
“Who cares?”
“Because the rules are the only thing we’ve got!”

I think that the everyone on the island are ignoring the rules; the children are still immature- biguns or littluns. Piggy resembles the grown up adult the children had in their head: knows what to do, makes the rules...etc.

Why are the children breaking the rules?

It shows that they are still very dependent; they still need their parents around to make them follow the rules. Once the adults are gone, the chain between the children and rules disappears gradually.


weifan:
I think that its impossible to stop Jack from falling into the "trap":the madness of hunting/dehumanization-->overcoming the need for rescue. The only way for Jack to change back is going back to where he was from [a city probably]. The problem is, they aren't focused on the fire, which is the token to resucue. Almost everyone is being pulled to the "trap" except for Piggy; he's the only one that didn't change.

Johnathan Lin said...

Q:At the end of Chapter five, the conch has lost its power to the right to speak and authority. When Piggy holds the conch, Jack always tells Piggy to shut up. Does the conch still have any importance or symbolism in the story?

A: Richard- Before this chapter, the conch symbolized civilization in the group. It was the only way they could have order. Whoever had the conch had the right to speak, so it also showed that the group was somewhat democratic. But after Jack's dehumanization begins, the conch becomes less significant. Because they are becoming more like savages, the conch is no use to them. Jack and his people are starting to not care about the conch, and what it stands for.

Jasper Huang #8 9A (-Wolf) said...

A. Yeah it does. The conch is still a reminder to the boys of Ralph’s power, and its beauty also awes the kids, giving the holder a resemblance of power. And to the “littleuns”, the conch still represents leadership and the right to speak. As Piggy simply states, “I had the conch. I had the right to speak.”
However, Piggy probably was only interrupted by Jack because of his status as a fat, half blind, whining useless person who didn’t do any work. Jack needed someone to vent his anger, so he picked on Piggy. As KK said, Jack isn’t happy that he isn’t chief, and doesn’t have control over the conch, which symbolizes leadership, so he breaks the rules to spite Ralph and attacks Piggy as well. Later on, the conch will also play another crucial role, but that’s secret for now. ;]
Because Ralph is still chief, as weak the term is now, he uses the conch to capture the attention of his “tribe”. So the conch has declined from symbolizing leadership, power, and respect itself to a desperate clinging to the outside, civilized world. The loss of respect and awe of the conch also shows the loss of civilized thoughts and actions among the boys as they deteriorate intellectually. Piggy, smart and sharp as to the changes in the boys’ attitudes, sums it up by saying “If you don’t blow (the conch…-_-), we’ll soon be animals anyway…” This shows that the conch is one of the few key items that keep the boys from being intelligent humans and not ignorant savages, and that is why its perfect

-Shadowolf
(finally know howta use this thingamabob…T_T)

Jasper Huang #8 9A (-Wolf) said...

Is Ralph really the better leader? Its obvious that the littleuns and others are frightened about the beast, but while Jack boosts the moral by saying there isnt a beast (even though he lies), Ralph doesnt seem to focus much on the feelings of the others. Instead, he accuses everyone of not doing there jobs without being flexible enough to realize that meat is also an important driving force to keep the boys united, and Ralph should be able to realize this if he wants to remain the leader.
(he's just a kid isnt a valid excuse coz he's our age...xD)

Jasper Huang #8 9A (-Wolf) said...

sry guys. typo. lol xD for my response, the last word isnt perfect, its important. so yeah.
thazit. nite pplz

Wendy Chen said...

Bess:

I think the boys still acknowledge Ralph as their leader, but they don’t have that much respect for him now. In the beginning, when Ralph had the conch and was saying something, they would not dare contradict him because to them, he has authority due to the “powerful” conch. But now, if they have their own ideas, they will speak them out. “There was a row immediately. Boys stood up and shouted and Ralph shouted back. (p81)” It is possible that they dare to disagree with Ralph now because they learned that he is not perfect. They might have thought he was “perfect” because he suggested making a fire, built huts for them, and made rules that will help with their lives. But I think when the ship came and they didn’t get rescued, they sort of lost faith in Ralph. They might have believed that Ralph will get them rescued no matter what, but now they see that even Ralph makes mistakes and isn’t “perfect”. Of course, it was actually Jack and his hunters’ fault that the fire died out, but since Ralph is the leader, maybe the boys held him responsible for that.
Even though the boys loved the meat Jack provided them, I don’t think they will turn on his side because they still long for the connection with civilization. If they follow Jack, they will probably have meat every day, but they will very possibly turn into savages. Then all the hope of being rescued would be gone.

“Only, decided Ralph, as he faced the chief’s seat, I can’t think. Not like Piggy. (p78)” Since Ralph acknowledged that Piggy is a lot more intelligent than himself, will he give up his place as chief to Piggy? Of course, the kids reject Piggy because of his obesity, but if they see the good side of him: his cleverness, would they accept him as their chief if he really becomes one?

Frank 9B said...

Angela : I believe the beast is imaginary but they fear it because they are scared of themselves. The kids are starting to get scared of the beast because the beast is an allegory for their own savageness. They are scared of the savages they have become and what they have been doing. The more savage the kids grow, the more scared they become. Simon is the only one who has started to realize that there is no beast, and that they are only scaring themselves now. “Maybe there is a beast…. Maybe it’s only us.”

Why in the second paragraph of the story do they mention a parachute? Is it symbolizing something or is it someone dreaming about the past?

Michael Wu said...

Angela: I think the beast is just a product of their imagination. I think they were scared even before they knew about any beast because there are a lot of unknowns on the island, and they need to find an outlet to show their fear with. Because of this, without knowing it they imagine a beast and give it characteristics that make it scary. They fear it because they imagine it to be scary, but in fact, they are scared of fear itself.

Does the chanting of most of the boys at the end of this chapter symbolize anything? Are they becoming more like savages, or are they still retaining most of the aspects of civil society?

Anonymous said...

In this chapter, shows that Jack had taken the power of Ralph. Because he said that he would kill the beasts, what the littluns said. Although he said he would kill it so that the kids would follow him and listen to him, but he was scared of the beast too. Piggy had showed his frustration to the kids who always bulling at him, that he couldn’t bear anymore of the bullings to Piggy.

jasminechen said...

"This meeting must not be fun, but bussiness." (page 76, bottom-half)

I read somewhere (it should be somewhere from chapt. 1-5) that when Ralph blew the conch, the assembly brought excitement.

"The assembly was lifted towards safety by his words. They liked an now respected him." (page 37, bottom) From this quote, it sounds like the meeting is fun and not something as serious.

Now, meetings for Ralph seem like business and something serious--why is that?

jasminechen said...

Michael: I think the chanting symbolizes peacefulness. What I think is funny is that the savagery is concentrated in this chapter, and then it starts becoming peaceful in the end. I think the whole chapter is getting deeper into nature and what tribes do, such as tribal men chant songs and hunt.

Unknown said...

What is Ralph's realization about the island in the begging of chapter 5??