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"Fancy thinking the Beast was something you could hunt and kill" (143)!
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81 comments:
Under a misunderstanding, the boys accidently killed Simon. What is the significance of Simon's death? Is the story going to be tragic?
Haley:
The significance of Simon’s death tells us that the last part of the boy’s morality and civilization has been stripped away completely. When the boy’s of Jack’s group kills Simon, it shows that the only thing inside them is savage and chaos. Even Ralph and Piggy start to dance after Jack’s group started its ritual dance.
“At once the crowd surged after it, poured down the rock, leapt on to the beast, screamed, struck, bit, tore. There were no words, and no movements but the tearing of teeth and claws.” – Page 153
I think by now it is clear that the story is going to be tragic. The kids have lost all their civilization and they are now just inhuman savages. They are going to hunt and roam the island like animals, and probably make a lot of beliefs and stuff like ancient civilizations. At the end I think that everyone is not going to recognize anyone and they will all kill each other.
Jack thinks the beast is his enemy, but he also makes the beast into a godlike idol to workship. If the beast is an enemy, why does Jack want to respect and workship the beast? What good can it do to him?
The way Ralph kept repeating "I'm chief" makes him sound immature. Do you think he is still fit to be their leader?
Simon’s death was unjustly. His own people killed him. And when he had discovered that they were no beasts. He was dead without a time of talking. Why they didn’t recognize him? And why he knew that there were no beasts?
FERNANDO:
Under a fear, and uncivilized condition, the kids saw a black shadow coming out of the wood. Since they are kids, the fear overtook their spirit, and killed Simon. They are confused by the beast and Simon.
Angela: I don’t think Ralph is fit to be a leader anymore because he has already lost all his authority to Jack, he keeps repeating that he is chief. “I’ll blow the conch,” said Ralph breathlessly, “and call an assembly.” “We shan’t hear it.” Here, everybody doesn’t see Ralph as the chief anymore; they don’t care about the assembly or the conch. Their leader is now Jack, who will provide with fun, entertainment, and meat. They don’t see Ralph as a worthy leader anymore, all he cares is tending the fire and being rescued, unlike Jack who wanted to have fun in the island. When Jack ordered all the kids to dance, they danced and became crazy enough to kill Sam, thinking that he was the beast. I don’t think Ralph saying “I’m chief.” Makes him sound immature, it’s his way of trying to keep his authority over others and shows that he is losing authority to Jack. The group is made of kids and it is a kid’s nature to want to have fun, not to work, wait, and be rescued. Jack earned the authority by providing the kids with what they like to do – hunting and playing games. Ralph, on the other hand, loses his authority because he is dull compared to Jack, everybody has to work and no play. If you were a kid, would you pick the fun side (Jack) or the boring side (Ralph?)
Why is Simon the only person on the island to see dead people or animals and bea able to communicate with them? Is it because of this high level of knowledge that kills him in the end of this chapter?
What does the end of the chapter, where Simon's body washes away, symbolize? It doesn't seem particularly important to explain what happens after he dies, so why this?
Richard: Jack doesn't want to worship the beast-he wants to pacify it. That's why he leaves the head-so the beast will eat it instead of attacking them. He still wants to kill the beast if it appears.
How will the murder affect Ralph?
In this chapter Simon was murdered during the savage dance the boys had made up. Even Ralph was part of the murderers; even he joined in the savage dance. I think that now even Ralph is no power against Jack he has lost the power he used to have when Jack left the group, but now he is powerless at least not on Jack’s end of the island. He lost his power as soon as he ate Jack’s meat. Simon’s death I think is really going to damage Ralph mentally because he has always believe in civilization, laws ad he is the leader of the group that’s trying to do the civilized things and has always disagree with Jack and his savage ideas. However now he has become part of a major savageness I think if his followers know about this no one will follow him any longer.
dawn: i somehow think it tells us that simon is finally "rescued" from the island, for he is taken away.
angela: i think he is still fit to be their leader, but he should learn modesty and have people do what he says because they agree with him, instead of because he's chief.
does simon's death symbolize anything? what is its significance? will the hunters listen to ralph now? would simon's death change anything about the things that are the way they are now? (for example, chief position, civilization methods, thoughts of being rescued, views on the beast?)
Fernando: It was too dark at the time,and they couldn't tell if it were the beast or a person.
In Chapter 9, Simon was awakened from the illusions of Lord of the Flies. Lord of the flies told Simon about the beastie that lives within everyone, which is the human nature of evilness. “You knew, didn't you? I'm part of you? Close, close, close! I'm the reason why it's no go? Why things are the way they are?” Simon is the real protagonist that is not afraid of being affected by the beast. Simon is unsure about the existence of the beast however he is certain that the beast is an internal conflict fighting against the boys. In chapter 9, when Simon sees the parachutist, he accumulates enough evidences to know that the beast that comes from air is actually a dead body. Therefore, Simon rushes to Jack’s party to remind the boys about the truth of the beast, however the ritual dance brought out all the animal and savagery spirits lying inside the boys’ hearts all at once. So when they saw a shadowy figure, they were insane and not recognizing Simon and misunderstood Simon as the beast. “The beast struggled forward, broke the ring and... At once the crowd surged after it, poured down the rock, leaped on to the beast, screamed, struck, bit, tore…but the tearing of the teeth and claws.” Even Ralph and Piggy joined this killing of the beast, they were savages and cannibals to do that, the humanity in their hearts are already long gone when Simon’s dead body swept over to the sea. Simon’s and the parachutist’s dead body both moved out towards the open sea, meaning that there are no way the boys can know that the beast is not real; they lies within every boy on the island, because there are no more evidence to prove it. We can reflect this back to chapter 5, when Simon’s thoughts were interrupted and teased at during the assembly “What I mean is . . . Maybe it's only us . . .” When Simon’s dead body reached the sea, I was both infuriated and sad, because without Simon’s support, Jack will seize power and usurp Ralph’s position as chief.
Question: How is Ralph going to prevent Jack from taking away his chief position and lead the boys to death? What might Simon’s death cause the story/plot to change? Also, why is Piggy so ignorant that he misunderstood Simon as the beast? I don’t know what happened to Piggy when Simon was killed. Does he know the beast is Simon, or he just couldn’t stop Jack’s boys from killing him? Or is he turning to a savage, too?
HALEY: Simon's death symbolizes the full transformation of Jack's group into savages. It also symbolizes the final separation of Ralph and Jack.
Question: Is Simon evil inside the mind like the rest of the children? What does Golding want to show us when he states Simon's death? Did Simon's knowledge of the real beast mark the end of his innocence?
to haly:The death of Simon, i think, symbolizes the complete transformation of the dehumanization of Jack's group. The dance, i think, was like a ritual, completing the transformation. Before they killed him, Simon tried to reason and explain that there is no beast on the island. This was like a last it of civilization that they had within the group, and yet they killed it. This, furthermore, proves that they are completely dehumanized. Also, when Simons body drifted away, it was like the kids finally realized that they had killed a human being, an actual human. And that they also realized that they are slowly departing from humanity and civilization.
Does the parachutist's body drifting away symbolize anything? Perhaps the fear is drifting away from them slowly?
Dawn:
I think it means that everyone respects the idea of the beast. They all think it really exists. Simon represents the truth of things, such as the time when he heard the Lord of the Flies communicate with him. He is mature for his age. The part where the book says that his body is washed away means that the idea of the truth (beast) doesn't exist or is forgotten.
Simon was murdered in this chapter. What would happen to the story if Simon didn't get killed? I think everyone wouldn't follow Jack anymore.
Reader Response: Chapter 9 is amazingly heart-wrenching... heart-BREAKING. The madness of Jack and his hunters, the pure savageness – it’s incomprehensible. How can such little kids – kids! – be capable of such a thing? This is their first murder. What if they have another? The island holds pure madness... It’s no longer a place of paradise but truly an island of nightmare and darkness. I think the death of Simon was the turning point for Ralph. Now that he knows that Jack and his lot are capable of murder, cold blooded murder, there’s no way he’s going to try to argue that he’s still chief. It's over for Ralph. Now it's just a matter if he's going to stay alive, with this pack of wild, wild animals.
ted l: I think the parachuter symbolizes humanity, fear - real human feelings. It's human, of course. When it was still on the mountain there was still some evidence of society and civilization (the conch still worked). They used to fear the beast - it sort of kept them in line with fear - and now it vanished. Now that it has drifted away, there's no fear to hold the boys back. True madness will take over the island and rip the boys' lives apart. I'm sure they'll never be the same.
I mean "parachutist"... heheh
"He laughed at Piggy, expecting him to retire meekly as usual and in pained silence. Instead Piggy beat the water with his hands." pg. 147
Why didn't Piggy act like usual and resist?
Why did they kill Simon? Couldn’t they hear him? Did they really think that Simon was the beast or did they kill him because they said it was just a “game”? Isn’t it hard to actually kill, how did the kids just murder him like that?
I liked Simon… :(, he was cool.
Andrew,
The death of Simon was a great loss for Ralph. Simon was very supportive of Ralph and now Ralph lost a member. Without Simon, Ralph will have one less helper. Now Ralph only has Piggy, Sam, Eric, and Bill to back him up. Ralph might feel bad for Simon and think back to all the things Simon done for him. I think Ralph is an idiot; Simon was the one who was nicer and smarter. I’m not sure if Ralph participated in the murder, did he?
Haley:
I think the death of Simon signifies the beggining of all out war between Ralph and Jack. As people say, the first blood has been drawn and shed. It will become savagery and anarchy from here on out. The boys, even Ralph and Piggy, whom represented cilization and organization, had participated to kill SImon. All that stands for civilization has been lost. Savagery wins.
The story will be tragic for sure. I predict there will be a few more deaths before the end.
Question:
What does the storm symbolize? Does it have any coherence to the bloody death of Simon? Why didn't the children stop when they realized it was Simon?
The circle became a horseshoe. A thing was crawling out of the forest. It came darkly, uncertainly. The shrill screaming that rose before the beast was like a pain. The beast stumbled into the horseshoe.
Earlier in this chapter, Simon realizes that there is no beast and tries to get the message to the rest of them, but his unexpected appearance was mistaken as the beast. The group surrounded him and murdered him on the spot. The death of Simon once again reveals how savage the children had turned into. This island is no longer a paradise where they can have fun, but a island of evilness. What will happen in the end? Will they ever get rescued or will they kill each other like they killed Simon?
Matthew~What does the storm symbolize? Does it have any coherence to the bloody death of Simon? Why didn't the children stop when they realized it was Simon?
I think Golding uses the storm to foreshadow the death of Simon. And, I don't think the children realized that it was Simon.
Haley: Is it really a misunderstanding? Did none of the boys recognize SIMON, the very much human boy SIMON? This is not just an accident. It is a cruel game created by boys worked up in a violent frenzy. This part is where the story takes a major turn. Everything seems darker, scarier, more dangerous, and foreboding. Simon’s death is like the killing of innocence for all of the boys. They are no longer just children fooling around on a deserted island. They are murderers. They are like beasts.
Simon’s death also signifies the death of righteousness, justice, order, and everything the boys had before when they were still “civilized.” Even Ralph and Piggy get caught up in the madness. And yes, this story is going to be tragic. In a way.
Jack makes the beast into a kind of worshipped figure, something to be idolized and feared. What is the beast now? What does it symbolize? How has it contributed to growth of Jack’s “tribe”? Is the belief of the beast kind of like a religion?
Although this chapter, the most important part was the death of Simon. I think for me Simon’s death symbolizes the hope and the fear of these children. Their hope is losing, where their fear is gradually increasing. Not the fear toward the beast, but the feeling about this island.
“P’raps we ought to go too.” – Piggy, page 148
Not only the children wants to go Jack’s party, but even Piggy. Why? Because Jack got everything, like meat, drinks, and most importantly fun. Obviously the children are having a lot of fun in Jack’s party. Every child is searching for fun and wanting to have fun. In the story, Golding is always showing the feeling of every child in this world. They want fun and in this condition they want meat. He shows the true thoughts and feeling of children.
Through this chapter, it shows the reality of this island. The life of this island is harsh and who knows that who’s going to die next time. Nobody knows. In this kind of situation it is really hard for the children to life and survive safely. Is there a way to let everybody live and survive? What is the way?
ROBERT:
"He laughed at Piggy, expecting him to retire meekly as usual and in pained silence. Instead Piggy beat the water with his hands." pg. 147
Why didn't Piggy act like usual and resist?
Piggy is tired of the island. Ever since he came on the island, people were always making fun of him. Every time he tried to talk during the meeting, Jack would always say, "Shut up!" Piggy has feelings too. Now that Jack was gone, Piggy felt released and wasn't going to back down anymore. PIggy was afraid of Jack and now that he's gone, his fear is gone also.
HALEY:
Under a misunderstanding, the boys accidently killed Simon. What is the significance of Simon's death? Is the story going to be tragic?
A: I think that they knew the person they were killing was Simon, but at that time, they were acted like drunkards and didn't know what they were doing. It's bad luck that Simon came right when they were re-enacting the kiling of the pig. I think the death of Simon signifies the end of civilization on the island. Simon was the only good-hearted and fully civilized person left on the island. Now that he was killed by his own people, they all became savages, including Piggy and Ralph. The rest of the story will be tragic because now they won't even think about being rescued because they all became savages. I think that after Ralph and Piggy went to Jack's side, the story just started to become tragic. Now with the death of Simon, it makes it even more obvious.
P.148: “let them go, I don’t care”
This quote said by Ralph indicates that he has completely given up as a leader. Ralph has finally lost his leadership over the other boys, who are now in jack’s side enjoying the meat and hunting.
I think in this chapter it is obvious that Golding wants to show the readers that Jack’s authority over the boys becomes increasingly dangerous, which also foreshadows the violent consequences of his power. When Jack said “You left it behind. See, clever? And the conch doesn’t count at this end of the island” symbolizes Jack has created his own rules on his side of island and telling Ralph that he doesn’t care about the rules he has made because now he has the complete power. When Jack and his tribe first arrived to the island they were members of choir, singing Christian religious songs and hymns. In this chapter they still sing, but they sing chants that show the traditions of native cultures. Does this symbolize anything?
In the previous chapter, I think that Simon's encounter with the Lord of the Flies is foreshadowing Simon's death. And when the boys kill Simon, the beasts within them show. They become savaged and uncivilized.
Simon's death symbolizes that all the civilization is gone. When the boys started doing their hunting dance, even Ralph and Piggy join in. Piggy even said,"P'raps we ought to go to." Ralph's followers even accept Jack's invitation to join his tribe. This shows that Ralph is no longer the chief, and that Jack defeated him.
Is Ralph also turning uncivilized and into on of Jack's tribe members?
Haley- What is the significance of Simon's death?
I think the significance of Simon's death shows us the end of civilization, because the boys, who are just kids, kills him. It shows the savageness and the beast itself within the boys.
Under a misunderstanding, the boys accidently killed Simon. What is the significance of Simon's death? Is the story going to be tragic?
The significance of Simon's death is the fact that the boys became wild, and killed a member of their own pack. This showed what the boys were capable of doing, and that they charged past the barrier of any kind of rule or civilization. The story would most likely be tragic, now that Jack's pack have gone into complete craziness.
My question:
Ralph and Piggy join in the dance. What is the significance of this action? Did Ralph and Piggy turn into a savage like Jack's pack?
“Do our dance! Come on! Dance!” He ran stumbling through the thick sand to the open space of rock beyond the fire. Between the flashes of lightning the air was dark and terrible; and the boys followed him clamorously...Piggy and Ralph, under the threat of the sky, found themselves eager to take place in this demented but partly secure society.
I found this passage very interesting, because everyone seemed to be following Jack and is under his control—and the boys followed him clamorously. A few paragraphs before, when Jack ordered the chidren to do something, they all obeyed. This shows that they respect Jack, they take him as their leader, he has all the power—Power lay in the brown swell of his forearms: authority sat on his shoulder and chattered in his ear like an ape.Even though Ralph is the chief but it’s Jack the hunter who has provided them with meat. Even Ralph and Piggy who had tried to stop themselves from going to Jack’s party, at the end they came over and couldn’t resist accepting the meat that Jack gave them—They took the gift, dribbling. This shows that Jack has won, even Ralph who had tried to persuade the children that he is the leader and he is better than Jack, gave in.
Another thing I found significant about this paragraph was that Piggy and Ralph…found themselves eager to take place in this demented but partly secure society.This shows that all the children including Piggy and Ralph (who has tried to keep a sense of civilization and society in the group) has turned more savage-like than ever. They turned so crazy that they saw Simon as the beast and at the end they ended up killing him. But I don’t get the part where moonbeam-bodied creatures with fiery eyes had taken Simon away. What are those creatures? Are they important in the story?
Haley: the significance of simon's death tells us how savage and beast-like the children had turned into.
Haley:
Simon is a symbol of justice, human goodness, and civilization, when he died, it represents the loss of justice and civilization and that evil and savagery has taken over the island. Even Ralph and Piggy were “eager to take place in this demented but partly secure society.” Jack has completely taken the power over Ralph. I think the Lord of the Flies is the savageness and evilness in their body, and it controls Jack and the other biguns. I think in the end, Piggy and Ralph will join Jack’s tribe and they will kill each other.
Sandra - As we discussed in class, Ralph and Piggy are the most reasonable in the whole group, no? (Or rather, Piggy is, but Ralph follows his ideas and things) Once they are dancing wildly, not resisting the savage ways, the reader knows that there is not much hope of rescue and civilisation left on the island. If the most reasonable people are doing the silliest things too, the thought of rescue and getting back is lost.
What really surprised me in the chapter - but probably shouldn't have - was the murder of Simon. After what they did to Robert when he was acting the pig, actually hurting him, I should have knew it was coming - that someone was really going to get seriously hurt and perhaps die. Still, it shocked me to bits - that such an innocent (yet a little batty) child would actually get killed amongst children.
Then it rained, which probably symbolises, as it does in many stories, sorrow and loss. A rainbow always comes out (along with the bright bright sun) after the rainfall, and rainfall is somewhat like the climax of the conflict in the story, therefore the story will soon end.
What I didn't understand was why the bodies of Simon and the parachutist were washed away by the rain. I mean, it is reasonable that the rain will wash away loose objects on the island, but what was the signficance in them being carried out to sea? I thought for Simon it meant to clarify that he really is dead. Perhaps his words are dead too - the promise he said to Ralph to give him hope (telling him that he'd make it out of the island), or it is just to say that he really is gone.
But for the parachutist - as we discussed in class, he is most likely an emblem of the children's fear and fear in general. Why is he being washed away too? Is it because Jack and them are no longer afraid, but entirely savage? Or is it to show that the so-called "Beast" (as he is thought of as when Ralph, Jack, and Roger saw) is not physical, but like Simon hallucinated, something in one's mind?
"Softly, surrounded by a fringe of inquisitive bright creatures, itself a silver shape beneath the steadfast constellations, Simon's dead body moved out toward the open sea."
Once Simon was murdered by the hunters, do you think that all hope of civilized manner is lost? Because the only three that stand for civilization are Ralph, Piggy, and Simon, with one already dead, do you really think now that the rest would be able to survive and still be civilized?
Albert liang
Robert: I think Piggy stopped being his subordinate self because he is tired of it. He want change because things are getting out of hand. I think from now on, Piggy will be more and more aggressive, implementing what he thinks and to stop being bullied around.
Albert Liang
Kimi,
"Is there a way to let everybody live and survive? What is the way?"
Ironically, there is, only one way to live on this island, and that is the way nature had designed for wild animals in an uncivilized habitat--savageness, kill or be killed. While Simon's death was a downright mistake, it quickly becomes apparent that the only ones who are "safe" are the ones who possess the ability to defend and attack themselves. Therefore, in a sense, Jack and his hunters are much more adapted to living on this island--nature favors them.
My question: Apart from Simon's death, if they discovered that the "beast" was just a dead parachutist, would it make that big of a difference?
Richard
(Jack thinks the beast is his enemy, but he also makes the beast into a godlike idol to workship. If the beast is an enemy, why does Jack want to respect and workship the beast? What good can it do to him?)
Just like how ancient people used to do it, he was worshiping what he feared. He thought that if the Beast liked the sacrifices, it would not turn against him and maybe even protect him. Now the beast is not just an imaginary object but something in their minds that interferes with their daily lives.
"At once the crowd surged after it, poured down the rock, leapt on to the beast, screamed, struck, bit, tore... , Simon's dead body moved out toward the open sea."
After being brutally beaten by everyone, Simon has finally left this world and also Ralph's side. Now that he only has Piggy on his side what will happen? Will piggy join the others or will they both join? Or will they be seen as useless and prone to attack by Jack.
"'Let them go,' said Ralph uneasily, 'I don't care''Just for some meant-''And for some hunting,'said Ralph wisely,'and for pretending to be a tribe , and putting on war-paint' Piggy stirred the sand under water and id not look at Ralph. 'P'raps we ought to go too.' Ralph looked at him quickly and Piggy clushed. 'I mean-to make sure nothing happens.'
----------------------------------
After Bill and Samneric left to join Jack's group, Ralph and Piggy are starting to get cold feet. Why is Piggy suddenly losing optimism about Jack leaving? What does he think that will happen?
Adam: The boys all started to attack Simon because of their game. In the midst of excitement, the boys became blinded and mistook Simon for a beast. The savageness of the boys led to the death of Simon, one of the most innocent and most important figures in the group.
This issue shows how far the savages within the children have come. They are slowly being eaten by the savages within while Simon, one of their only hopes, has just been killed in the process. He was the only one who probably had the least amount of wildness within him and he could have made a significant change if he were still alive. Now that he’s dead I feel that this group, including Ralph and Piggy, could all fall into the hands of savageness.
“The afternoon wore on, hazy and dreadful with damp heat; the sow staggered her way ahead of them, bleeding and mad, and the hunters followed, wedded to her in lust, excited by the long chase and the dropped blood.”
The hunt for the sow had been a trap for the addiction of hunting and now everyone loved the experience. When Simon crawled back to them they started to feel the thrill of hunting the sow and nothing could stop them. It became an addiction that ruined all their sense. Simon was trying to tell them that the monster was a fake but their sense of hearing and sense of sight was affected so they couldn’t tell if it was Simon or a beast.
Simon’s death was caused by the savageness of all the people on the island. They loved hunting so much that it became an instinct so when Simon came in they quickly killed him.
Weifan) : No, there would be a minimal difference to the boys, who are already stricken by fear of this unknown horror, and uses the beast as a way to physically give their fear a shape and definition.
To each boy, the beast is just a representation of their worst fear, may it be a “snakey-like monster” (Phil), a “beastie from the sea” (Percival), or just “only us”(Simon), and the discovery of the parachutists wouldn’t serve to convince the boys that the beast is just harmless body. Instead, it would only give comfort to rational thinkers like Piggy, while the other boys who have lost most of their logical thought would believe that the parachutist was just a coincidence, and the monstrous beast still existed somewhere out there, each boy’s worst nightmare.
Maybe if the parachutist’s corpse had been discovered before the decline of civilization on the island, the boy’s fear would have been resolved, and there Jack wouldn’t have been able to use the boy’s fear to start his reign of power, so the dead parachutist’s influence would have more at the beginning of the story, but now that Jack and his followers have chosen to ignore the truth and treat the beast as an almost mythical creature, one to be worshipped and treated with awe and respect, they definitely won’t accept the fact that they were all scared silly by a harmless body, especially Jack, and deny the truth before their very eyes.
-Wolfang
Why did they kill Simon and not Ralph or Piggy? What did Simon do to be deserved to be killed?
Q:
What has happened to the littluns? The author seems to have almost completely ignored the littluns existence. Why does the author put so little attention on the littluns (bsides the fact that they're little)? How come they don't seem to have had the same serious decline of civilty like the boys older than them?
Adam~
I think they couldnt hear Simon because they were all too wild and savage and crazy at that time
“Who’ll join my tribe?”
“The littleuns screamed and blundered about, fleeing from the edge of the forest”
"Kill the beast! Cut his throat! Spill the blood!"
Jack wanted to make Ralph’s “littleuns” join his tribe. If that is so, why would he want to show them his brutal side and scaring them away? Wouldn’t that be worsening his reputation instead of increasing it?
Jasper Huang #8 9A (-Wolf):The author ignored the littleuns because they fled from the edge of the forest, and the real focus is on Jack and Ralph.
Angela: I think that Ralph is saying that because he thinks that Jack isn’t fit for a leader. However, is he himself fit for a leader? That may not be true. Personally, I think that Jack has more potential but he doesn’t use it properly and Ralph has the undeveloped skill, because he uses Piggy’s nice ideas and one of the many important qualities of a leader is to listen to other people’s good ideas.
Dawn: the loss of connection between nature or the loss of hope to be rescued.
Response: The repetition of “Kill the beast! Cut his throat! Spill his blood!” made it seem like the boys were drunk and going crazy. They couldn’t even recognize Simon, a companion of theirs. Jack is very smart acute, got the boys to sing and dance “Do our dance! Come on! Dance!” He knew that the boys would like it and go crazy (well, of course, little boys like to have fun). He got the boys occupied to do something so they won’t be bored and if they’re bored, they won’t join Jack’s tribe. Now that they are having a lot of fun, they will definitely join Jack’s tribe (and also because of the meat). Ralph and Piggy also got caught in the trap, “Piggy and Ralph, under the threat of the sky, found themselves eager to take a place in this demented by partly secure society. They were glad to touch the brown backs of the fence that hemmed in the terror and made it governable.” From the pervious chapter about Ralph being excited about hunting, we can see that he is gradually starting to like the way of Jack hunting and violence and that he finds it fun. In this chapter, it is showed more clearly from him dancing and going crazy with the boys in Jack’s tribe.
Question: Now that Jack holds more power, will Ralph and Piggy join the tribe and take over?
Bess: After Bill and Samneric left to join Jack's group, Ralph and Piggy are starting to get cold feet. Why is Piggy suddenly losing optimism about Jack leaving? What does he think that will happen?
I think Piggy suddenly lost optimism about Jack leaving because he’s scared what’s Jack going to do to them afterwards, because after the accident of killing Simon.
Kimberly: I don’t think just because Jack holds more power now, Ralph and Piggy will join his tribe. Because Jack had said that he would let them join or not let them join. So I think Ralph and Piggy would not dare join his tribe.
“Kill the beast! Cut his throat! Spill his blood!” The blue-white scar was constant, the noise unendurable. Simon was crying out something about a dead man on a hill. “Kill the beast! Cut his throat! Spill his blood! Do him in!” The sticks fell and the mouth of the new circle crunched and screamed. The beast was on its knees in the center, its arms folded over its face. It was crying out against the abominable noise something about a body on the hill… (p.152)
This part of the story was interesting. When Jack started to do the dancing, everyone joined except Ralph and Piggy. It was just then, something’s crawling out of the forest, and that something was Simon.
Most importantly, Simon was the one coming out of the forest, not a beast. In the book, the author describes it as Simon, and then as a beast when the other kids were trying to kill it. I noticed that, when they were dancing and singing the chant, they got themselves so into it that they lose their conscious, not able to recognize of whatever it is that’s in front of them. When Simon comes out, they started to surround him, and sing the chant together, and trying to kill him. The littluns were screaming as if they saw a beast but not as a human. At the end, they killed him right on the spot. I believe it’s because they were frightened, that they just become savages when they see something scary or beast looking. They can’t hear anything but their mind full of, “Kill the beast! Cut his throat! Spill his blood!” when the author said, Simon was calling out to them about a dead man on the hill; they ignored it, or at least couldn’t hear him.
So I conclude that the chant makes everyone go wild, especially when they are frightened. Chanting with a frightened heart encourages them, and this turns them wild and become savage. Not able to think like a human, or hear anything but only about, “Kill the beast! Cut his throat! Spill his blood!”
Posting a question:
What makes them kill Simon by accident? What's the significance of the chant this time?
The boys were so caught up in their ritual/dance/whatever they believed Simon was the beast. Also, they ignored the fact that their "beast" had the ability to speak. The boys have turned completely savage, having actually killed another human. I understand they were caught in the moment, but I think they’ve completely lost their hold on humanity. How ironic, Simon hurries down the mountain to tell the others that the beast is really a dead human, but they ignore him and kill him, thinking he's the beast. He walks right into his death as he tries to tell others that there's nothing to worry about.
At this point the reader knows for sure that the boys have gone savage. Do you think the boys will ever return to their civilized ways, or are they past the point of recovery?
Reply to Jackie's question:
I believe they could still go back to their civilize ways. As it says in the book, the only people that're not in the circle of chant is Piggy and Ralph. Ralph is still the chief, I believe he and Piggy will be able to return them into their civilize ways. Because it's the chant that made the kids go wild and turn to savages (temporary). But if they did do the chant everyday, I think it'll just make them turn into savage completely. So, I guessed that Ralph and Piggy will be able to bring them back.
TED WU:
I think that Ralph is going to use the specs and shelter to try and attract the boys to his side. Since Jack’s tribe doesn’t have shelter to protect them from the rain, most of the boys would probably follow Ralph. Jack only has meat, while Ralph has fire and shelter. Therefore, many boys would most likely follow Ralph.
I don’t think that Ralph would turn into a savage and lead the boys to death. Ralph still has hope of not becoming savage; he was daydreaming about his life at home. This shows that he is still has a sense of civilization. “Once, following his father from Chatham to Devonport, they had lived in a cottage on the Edge of the moors. In the succession of houses…”(112)
Piggy probably got caught into the dance, and was scared himself. “Piggy and Ralph under the threat of the sky, found themselves eager to take a place in this demented but partly secure society.” (152) When Piggy got caught into the dance, I think he changed into a savage; he wasn’t thinking about what he was doing. He saw something come out of the woods, and just attacked it without thinking. Ralph and Piggy are probably the most civilized people on the island, but I think they just lost control over themselves when they joined the dance. Now that Simon is dead, the boys wouldn’t know the truth about the beast; they will still be scared.
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Why didn't Simon run away when he saw everybody crowding around him with spears pointed at him?
Allen:
I don't think that Ralph and Piggy turned into savages, but this shows the kind of effect power has on people. Jack had power and food and everything they could want, and because of this reason, they also kind of wanted to join into Jack's weird "pack".
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From the way Golding describes the dance, what have the children become? Are they the same kids who woke up on this island one day?
Haley:
I think that when Simon gets killed civilization is gone from the boys. All of the boys turned into savages. When they were dancing the wild hunt dance they forgot themselves, and started to act out the pig hunting again, they are caught up in this crazy state. Since they were in a wild state they didn't recognize Simon, and assumed he was the beast. Even Ralph and Piggy were caught up in this state, they turned into savages and killed Simon. After this i think they have all turned into savages. They are not civilized anymore. I think the story will be a tragic, they will slowly kill each other, because of the wild and savage state.
Question:
Do you think the boys have turned into savages already?
The boys killing Simon and the savages they've become are not what worry me. What I'm really curious about is why the novel is named "Lord of the Flies". We can see that "Lord of the Flies" refers to the pig head, but what significance does it play in the novel. The "beast" is gone, both the mistaken Simon and the misinturpreted pilot, so what other meaning does the head have? Couldn't the book be names "Rescue" or "Hope" or something around the main theme? Or maybe "Savage" or "Primitive" or "Island of Boys". What makes the pig head so special?
What was most interesting to me was when Jack, upon hearing that it will rain, said to everyone "Do our dance! Come on! Dance" That seems rather interesting to me because it seemed to me to be ritual-ish behavior. I think this really signifies more and more primitive de-behavior. It looks like the majority of the group has finally gone as savage as they can get, from the hunting to the killing of poor Simon.
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Response to Andy:
Simon probably didn't run away because he had his really important message to give. Either that or that he had no idea the others were already as nuts as they were, so he just kept advancing, unknown to the fatal consequences of his innocent behavior. In any case, it was pretty evident that he really wanted to tell the others of his discovery, and perhaps revert things back to the way they were when they had just crash landed here. Then again, don't you think the dark setting the author puts up is just posing/yearning for trouble?
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~Anthony
Chapter 9 question
Are the children on the island becoming something less human than a “savage”? Are they becoming animals? “At once the crowd surged after it, poured down the rock, leapt on to the beast, screamed, struck, bit, tore. There were no words, and no movements but the tearing of teeth and claws.”(153) Are the children losing their ability to recognize one of their own, in this case, Simon? And as the quote shows, they are using their teeth to hurt now, not just weapons. Are the children in fact, becoming something worse than savages?
Daisy: I don't think Simon did anything that made him deserved to be killed, and I don't think the kids new it was Simon that they killed. They were caught up in their hunting chant and the desire to hurt. Now out of the terror rose another desire, thick , urgent and blind Even Ralph and Piggy wanted to join in, and I doubt they would have if they knew it was Simon they were killing. All the kids thought it was the beast that came out, especially when Simon was half screaming and crawling.
In Response to Hannah:
I think the chant dehumanizes the bunch of boys and throws them into savagery. The chant symbolizes the savagery and evil that is slowly starting to devour the boys' innocence. In this sense, they were so overcome by the savagery and internal desire to kill that they simply killed Simon as the beast without thinking. I think they knew it was Simon, only the madness of the chant drove them into brutality. I believe it was a conscientious decision to murder Simon. This is because the chant soothed their fears and allowed them to satisfy their internal savagery. The chant was something that allowed them to overcome their fear and discard whatever they had learned in the past and return to a more primitive society.
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My Question:
During Jack's party where he handed everybody meat, Ralph tried to assert his power as chief. This happened despite the fact that Jack was the host and the provider of the food. Do you think it was a smart decision for Ralph to try to assert his power on Jack's party? Why would you think he did so?
Haley: I think that the significance of Simon's death is that it shows Jacks true side. It shows that Jack has completely turned savage and that he isnt going to change back to being civilized. He has made a complete transformation by killing a human being. I think that the minute Jack was repeating that he wanted to kill the pig, the book turned tragic. Him saying that foreshadowed that there will be killing, and that he is already becoming less civilized and more savage.
HANNAH:
The reason they killed Simon without even noticing is really because they had fully transformed into savages. If they weren't one hundred percent savages, then they'd notice and stop. The chant this time was different than last time. Since they were completely dehumanized, reality was their beast.
Richard:
Jack worships the beast because he is a beast himself. If Jack was not a savage, then he wouldn't even dare to do anything to the beast. Since Jack is like a savage, or beast, Jack probably understands the beast alittle more.
Angela:
I don't think Ralph is fit to be THEIR leader, but he is fit to be a leader of people like Piggy or Simon.
Chuni:
I think Ralph chose the wrong time to annouce his leader position. Ralph was eating meat caught BY Jack. This symbolizes that Ralph had lost in his position.
Jasper Huang:
The biguns have more knowledge than the littluns. The more a person knows, the more complicated things get, and trouble increases.
Haley:
I don't think the story will be tragic. Ralph is still alive, and so is Piggy, and this symbolizes some hope.
To Jackie:
Even though the boys have become even more savage than they have once been, there is still a chance of them recovering to normal citizens.
The first way is for Ralph to take over the chief and rule the assembly. Ralph is almost the only person alive on the assembly, except Piggy, that hasn’t completely turned savage (even though he had – for a while). With Ralph, orders would be restored and the assembly would start acting like civilized citizens again. The only time they would need to be savage is when they are hunting.
The second way is to wait for the real world to rescue them. Once rescued, they would not be able to act like beasts again because they would be living in paved streets, not wild forests. By living in these civilized areas, they would eventually change and not be wild animals anymore.
To answer your question, I believe the boys would be able to change, even though they are already very deep into “savageness”.
Question:
Do you think the death of Simon symbolize anything? Is it just an accident for that he was mistaken as the beast and killed? Or is there something deeper that the author is trying to tell us.
haley:
i think it shows jack's real self now.
Jack makes the beast into a godlike figure, a kind of totem he uses to rule and manipulate the members of his tribe.
is the story going to be a tragic? umm i don't think so
there's always hope right?
my question: will jack turn back to his old self?
Matt
I think that the storm could symbolize the state that the boys are in at this stage. The boys have now almost completely lost their self-control, and they do whatever they want. Whatever occurs to them, they will do. If they feel like killing someone, they probably will. There is no one to stop them now that Ralph has pretty much lost all of his authority. A storm is like the pack of boys because there is no way to control a storm. We are unable to control where it goes and what it does, much like the boys are now uncontrollable in their frenzied actions. A storm goes where it wants, when it wants, doing whatever it wants, completely ignoring any outside influence. I think that the storm's coherence with Simon is that Simon is like an unwitting victim of a storm. A storm will knock down poles and buildings in its path without a second thought. Simon is like an unwitting traveler that wanders into a storm's midst, except this storm is one not of wind and rain but one made up of frenzied schoolboys armed with spears. I think that the children didn't stop when they realized that it was Simon because they were already in a frenzy, and they were chanting and doing everything that keeps them from stopping and makes them carry on with whatever they are doing. The chant is like alcohol, making the children lose their minds and do things that they would probably never do otherwise. Ralph would probably never attack someone if was sober or uninfluenced, but with the chant, even he goes in and attacks Simon.
Question
"Softly, surrounded by a fringe of inquisitive bright creatures, itself a silver shape beneath the steadfast constellations, Simon's dead body moved out toward the open sea." (pg. 154)
What does Simon's death symbolize? Why is it so important that the author uses a whole paragraph just to describe what happens to Simon's body? Now that Simon is dead, what do you think the effect will be on the children when they realized that hey have killed another human being? Does this foreshadow what will happen to anyone who resists the group?
Simon has always been a very civilized person in the group, and now he is dead. Ralph's very few supporters got even less, and Ralph is considering to join Jack.
I think Simon's death is a great turning point in the story, whereas Ralph's group is hopeless for winning. The civilization was washed away along with Simon and Jack's savage takes over.
What did the beast mean "play with him a little while" when talking to simon?
did it show what it meant in this chapter?
After reading this chapter, I am thoroughly disturbed by this book. I think the fact that Golding makes a bunch of little boys, at most probably 13 years old, commit murder is just frightening. Maybe I shouldn’t be calling them boys because they’ve all thoroughly turned into savages. Even Ralph and Piggy, the more sensible and rational ones get caught up by this mysterious power that make them turn crazy. It’s almost as if they were drugged and the have no control over what they are thinking or doing, but the book gives us any signs that they have consumed any sort of alcoholic drink. So what is this mysterious power that dehumanizes you and makes you lose your identity and conscious as a human being and eventually, turning you into a savage? I think what Golding is trying to tell us is, this is the natural evil inside us. Most people can control themselves and keep themselves civilized, but once we are separated from civilization and order is lost, we are vulnerable to that evil which will eventually, turn us into a savage. If you think about you, Ralph and Piggy are perfect examples of this process happening. My question is – what do you think is the power that drives them all savage? Is it like what I said? Or do you see it in another way.
Andrew - I hope that there's still a spark of a civilized being in Ralph and he'll come to regret what he has done by killing Simon. But I really don't know what will happen to him. I could see earlier in the story that almost everyone would end up turning savage, but I had my doubts for Piggy. But if even Piggy turns savage, I really have no idea what will happen now.
What does the storm symbolize? Does it symbolize loss? Savagery? Violence?
Haley: THe significance of Simon's death is that the boys cannot withhold their savagery anymore. At this point, their savage instincts have completely taken over their minds, and they do not know how to think or act like civilized people anymore. They have given in to their animal-like impulses, and it symbolizes that they have regressed as humans and have little to no humanity left in them. The story is probably going to be tragic since even the people who represent the "good side" like Ralph and Piggy find it hard to not follow their instincts, and if the leader of the good cause is lost, then true hope is lost.
Reply to Tyng-Yih Lin: “Power lay in the brown swell of his forearms: authority sat on his shoulder and chattered in his ear like an ape.”(150) I think Jack was just trying to assert his power, but the little ones have a bad image of him, so he scared them away.
Michael: What does the storm symbolize? Does it symbolize loss? Savagery? Violence?
At first the storm is something more of an omen. Simon sees it as he awakes, and after he finds out what the beast really is, he goes back to the boys to tell them about his discovery. The storm gets worse as Simon reaches the boys, and right after the boys kill him the storm explodes, as if reacting to their evil deed of killing Simon. At this point the storm symbolizes a universal assessment of the things that the boys have done. It's a sign to the boys that they have done something way too savage and cruel.
Why did the boys kill Simon, when he was the one who knew the most about their worst fear-the beast?
robert:
I think Piggy is just fed up with everyone annoying him and picking on him that he no longer wants to sit back and let them do that. I think that is one of the many great changes that happens in this chapter.
How did the kids not see that Simon was Simon? How could they kill him? Does Simon's death symbolize a tragic ending?
I think it's ironic how at first, Ralph is seen as the "angel" of the group. He has the "fair hair," pale skin, and "boxer's physique." Simon, on the other hand, seems to be tha farthest thing possible from an angel. He is small, skinny, and pallid, with coarse black hair. If h wasn't seen from time to time, he would be forgotten. The things he says are cryptic and random. Yet eventually, they prove to be true. When he says to Ralph, "No, I think YOU'LL GET BACK ALL RIGHT," it's true, because Simon never does get to go home. He dies. He is also the first to consciously discover the Beast, which makes him look like one of the prophets in the Bible, where some heavenly being enlightens a mortal with heavenly knowledge, good or bad. Also, when Simon dies, the water "dressed Simon's coarse hair," the "line of his cheek silvered," and "the turn of his shoulder became sculptured marble." It's as if he was gvien in death what he could not be given in life. Death revealed his true beauty.
At the beging of the chapter pg145 from over the island to brown clouds brooded" does the heat and the explosion symbolis something? whay does it symbolis?
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