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"Fancy thinking the Beast was something you could hunt and kill" (143)!
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88 comments:
"It was an accident," said Piggy suddenly, "that's what it was. An accident." His voice shrilled again. "Coming in the dark- he hadn't no business crawling like that out of the dark. He was batty. He asked for it." He gesticulated widely again. "It was an accident."....."It was an accident," said Piggy stubbornly, " and that's that."..."And look Ralph"- Piggy glanced round quicly, then leaned close- don't let on we was in that dance. Not to Samneric."
Question: Is Piggy trying the hide the fact he became a savage too? What made Piggy lose his integrity? He blames Simon for coming at the wrong time, and not himself or the other kids for killing Simon.He also warned Ralph not to tell anyone they were part of that dance.
This chapter shows that Jack overpowers Ralph and his small tribe. It seems that Ralph is losing his power. Ralph's tribe seems to be losing their interest of going back to their home after the death of Simon.
Is Ralph going to gain back his power? if they losing their interest to home, are they going to join Jack's tribe fore ever?
In response to Kristin,
I think this shows how the island is starting dehumanize everyone. This "darkness" is starting to consume the kid's sous into savagery. Nevertheless, I think Piggy has not being turned savage yet. I think what he was trying to do was hide the guilt that he saw the murder. He knew that the truth was that the children killed Simon and that Ralph and he were witnesses. However, in an attempt to brush the guilt away from himself The guilty conscience that he witnessed a murder and did nothing to stop it was too much for Piggy. He tried to throw away this shame/guilt by trying to convince himself that it was an accident. To further distance himself from the shame, he told Ralph to pretend that they did not see anything.
=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-
My Question:
On p. 168 the narrator says this about Jack:
"He was a chief now in truth; and he made stabbing motions with his spear. From his left hand dangled Piggy's broken glasses."
1. Why is he the chief now? Why do you think the kids would voluntarily abandon the chances of being rescued and turn into mindless savages?
2. What is the significance of Piggy's broken glasses? And why did Jack want to steal it?
After reading this chapter I have noticed that Ralph and Piggy feels guilty about Simon’s death. They tell themselves that they did not know that it was Simon until it was too late. However, the involvement of Piggy and Ralph shows that even these two, the most mature and rational people out of the group also got influenced by the savageness. What is Golding trying to tell the readers? Because I thought Ralph and Piggy are suppose to be the innocent ones while Jack is the evil person?
Jack as the new leader of the boys maintain his authority by using the fear that the boys have against the beast, telling his followers that he will protect them and create a safety environment. But I think he is just pleasing the boys with games and hunting, doing nothing to improve their safety. When Jack was faced with the problem of providing a feast without a fire, his solution is to steal from the boys from the other side of the island. What do you think this symbolize?
Kristin Kiang- Is Piggy trying the hide the fact he became a savage too? What made Piggy lose his integrity? He blames Simon for coming at the wrong time, and not himself or the other kids for killing Simon.He also warned Ralph not to tell anyone they were part of that dance.
I think that Piggy lost his rationality and maturity because he got influenced by the savageness of the other boys. But I think Golding does show the readers that there is still difference between Piggy and Ralph from Jack. Ralph and Piggy still have a moral sensibility. They realize that their actions are wrong and feel guilty about it, unlike the other boys who do not feel ashamed of what they have done. Even if Piggy and Ralph made a bad decision, the fact that they reflect upon what they have done indicates that they have understanding of moral principles.
Jennifer,
Ralph and Piggy are NOT innocent. They were when the plane crashed, but as life on the island becomes more and more difficult, they became more and more independent.
There is no one that is perfect in an aspect, no protagonist that is spotless, and no antogonist that is purely evil. Jack's inner softness had already been shown, and it is natural that Ralph, and even the sensible Piggy, should have some weaknesses.
Besides, even though Ralph and Piggy are "sensible", the dark side of humanity is still wired in their blood.
===================================
My question
Other else than the ability to make fire, how does Piggy's glasses consolidate Jack's power?
"Piggy."
"Uh?"
"That was Simon."
"You said that before."
"Piggy."
"Uh?"
"That was murder."
In the last chapter, Simon was brutally murdered by Jack and his hunter. Question: If Ralph thinks that Jack shouldn't have murdered Simon, why didn't he try to stop it? Was it because he was too afraid? Or was it that he didn't have enough power to stop them?
"'You could-' 'Call an assembly?' Ralph laughed sharply as he said the word and Piggy frowned. 'You're still chief.' Ralph laughed again. 'You are. Over us.'
Why did Ralph laugh?
"They don't count. No biguns?"
"oh-Samneric. They're collecting wood."
"Nobody else?"
"Not that I know of"
pg. 155
What does this signify? Why are Sam and Eric the only two biguns that at loyal to Ralph?
Albert Liang #28
Robert: I think that Ralph laughed because he now knows that it is hopeless, and nobody would follow him because Jack has all the goodies and meat, the ones that they really want. He chuckles at the fact of how hopeless this situation is.
Albert Liang #28
In last chapter, Simon was murdered by the hunters. For what reason do Jack and his tribe believe that Simon was the beast? Do they have any evidence to prove?
Also, are Piggy and Ralph becoming savage too?
FERNANDO: I don't think Ralph will gain his power back, it will be really difficult because the entire tribe is now toward Jack. If they losed their interest of going back to the civilized world, sooner or later, they will join Jack' tribe, because they wil have no choice.
Jennifer
I think that it symbolizes how Jack is taking more control over the island. He is slowly taking away Ralph’s power and lowering the chances of getting rescued, since the fire symbolizes the hope of getting rescued. If the fire is strong, then they all want to get rescued, if the fire is weak, it means that many people have become savages. As Piggy loses his glasses, he will also lose his knowledge and Ralph’s side is over. He lost Piggy’s glasses, Simon, and the power of the conch, I think that they will either join Jack’s side or they will get killed sooner or later.
"The twins were very surprised to see Ralph. They flushed and looked past him into the air...
"After the feast," said Sam in a stifled voice...
"Yes. We were very tired, " repeated Sam, "so we left early. Was it a good -"
The air was heavy with unspoken knowledge. Sam twisted and the obscene word shot out of him. "-dance?""
What does this section mean? Do Sam and Eric think Ralph and Piggy had an active part in killing Simon? Were they all there, at the feast?
Also, what does Golding mean by now seperating Sam and Eric's names? Does it have to do with Jack's absence?
robert: Ralph laughed because he's lost his power already. He doesn't think he's chief... he thinks the idea of calling an assembly (who's going to attend?) would be foolish.
Tyng Lih~
I think that maybe it just happened too fast and Ralph didnt have a chance to react.
Tyng-Yih: I think that it’s not because of any of those reasons, I think it’s because they were all going crazy and they didn’t know what they were doing. It was the atmosphere.
Response:
In the whole novel, Piggy is known as the most knowledgeable and most intellectual boy on the island. He knew that Jack was going to take his glasses instead of the conch because he needed to make fire (and because they can’t always go steal fire from Ralph). And because this novel is written from a third-person point of view, we knew that Jack was going to take the glasses. Golding hints this by saying “Piggy handed Ralph his glasses, and waited to receive back his sight” after mentioning “Where was their fire?...Back at the old place by the fire rock.” I think that the way he does this is a foreshadowing of Piggy’s glasses being stolen by Jack in the end of the chapter. And “waited to receive back his sight” shows how he’s going to have to wait until he gets his glasses back to see.
“You all right, Piggy?”
“I thought they wanted the conch.”
Ralph trotted down the pale beach and jumped on to the platform. The conch still glimmered by the chief’s seat. He gazed for a moment or two, then went back to piggy.
“They didn’t take the conch.”
“I know. They didn’t come for the conch. They came for something else. Ralph—what am I going to do?”
Far off along the bowstave of beach, three figures trotted toward the Castel Rock. They kept away from the forest and down by the water. Occasionally they sang softly; occasionally they turned cartwheels down by the moving streak of phosphorescence. The chief led then, trotting steadily, exulting in his achievement. He was a chief now in truth; and he made stabbing motions with his spear. From his left hand dangled Piggy’s broken glasses.
The last sentence “From his left hand dangled Piggy’s broken” left me the thought of “Is Jack going to figure out some other way to use the glasses to take revenge?” because he has been so cruel and violent the whole time (he even ties up and beats a littlun named Wilfred). The chapter just stopped there. And it made me put thought into why the author suddenly stopped there. The way Golding uses “dangling” makes it seem more like Jack is going to do something with it.
Question: Why does Piggy keep on denying that he wasn’t part of the murder?
Tyng Yih- I think Ralph didn’t stop Jack from saving Simon, because he himself was too caught up in the dance like the others. He was suddenly turning into a savage too.
Does the quote "From his left hand dangled Piggy's broken glasses." mean something in the future?
Chapter 10 question
“Eric flung himself down. “I’m too tired. And what’s the good?” “Eric!” Cried Ralph in a shocked voice. “Don’t talk to like that!” Sam knelt by Eric. Well---what is the good?” Ralph tried indignantly to remember. There was something good about a fire. Something overwhelmingly good. “Ralph’s told you enough,” Piggy said moodily. “How else are we going to be rescued?”
“Of course! If we don’t make smoke...” He squatted before them in the crowding dusk. “Don’t you understand? What’s the good of wishing for radios and boats?” (163)
Why did Ralph, someone who first came up with the idea of making a fire for a smoke signal, forget about its purpose right now? Are they getting too involved in living on the island that they have forgotten the old lives they had?
Reply to Albert: “You got lost after the...” Piggy cleaned his lens. “After the feast,” said Sam in a stifled voice. Eric nodded. “Yes, after the feast.” “We left early, “said Piggy quickly, “because we were tired” “so did we---“ “---very early---“ “we were very tired.” Sam touched a scratch on his forehead and then hurriedly took his hand away. Eric fingered his split lip. “Yes. We were very tired,” repeated Sam, “so we left early. Was it a good...” (158) this quote shows that Sam and Eric felt bad attending the feast and then the dance, but it also shows that they are more royal to Ralph’s side, and would rather go the civilized way than go hunting. This is why the twins are the only bigun’s loyal to Ralph.
Ralph remembered the ungainly figure on a parachute. "He said something about a dead man." He flushed painfuly at this admission that he had been present at the dance. (pg. 162)
Ralph saw the dead man! Does he realize that it was the beast, or does he still not know? Also, apparently he could hear Simon, so why did he join in the dance?
KK: I think Piggy simply doesn't want Ralph to get too down. Ralph is really upset, so Piggy tries to use this method to keep up his spirit. He realizes that they won't get out if they keep antagonizing over Simon, so he lies a little to prevent that.
What is the significance of Jack attacking Ralph and his group of people? What was the point of him beating them up like that or did they just do it for fun?
Why do you think they need Piggy's spectacles for; Jack is obviously not interested in building a signal fire to get off the island. Why do you think they need the power to make fire.
Q: Since when does Jack desired fighting and killing? his behavior is more than savage. is Jack controled by Lord of the Flies?
Chuni:
Jack is now chief because of all the power he has. He has control over most of the boys, and he always tells them what to do.He is now the leader for he destroyed Ralph in the battle for power and he is even getting fire and other things.
The reason he took Piggy's glasses is so he can keep making a fire. So he won't have to steal the fire, he can just make it with Piggy's glasses.
---------------------------
At the end of the chapter, the children think that Jack had come for the conch. Why do they still think the conch has importance?
Fernando: every group member in Jack's group is savage. but Ralph's group is different, the at least are still under their own control. they won't go savage. At least, Piggy would be a great advisor to the group.
1. Why is he the chief now? Why do you think the kids would voluntarily abandon the chances of being rescued and turn into mindless savages? -Chuni
I think Jack is the cheif now because he the person who provides meat and a more adventurous life and more fun. Since they are still kids they will naturally be attracted to fun things, things that are adventurous and Jack provides it. Jack also provides safety " along had been jammed under the topmost roch and another lever under that. Robert leaned lighty on the lever and the rock groaned. a full effor would send the roch thundering doen the the neck of the land. Roger Admired. " Hes's a prper cheif, isn't he?" Jack provided secruity to them, while Ralph only made shelter and let them be vulnerable to the things outside. So they would follow Jack and become savages then be rescused.
Question:
" He pointed at this savage...A savage raised his hand...each savage flinshes away" (160)
Goldinf now calls the followers of Jack savages wat do you think this represents?
Jerry Yeh:
Jack became an inhuman savage little by little, beginning from the part when he hunted while Ralph was making huts. After Simon's death, Jack has turned fully into a savage.
I think that Jack believes that the beast is still alive, and he tells the whole group that the beast never dies. I think he uses the beast to kind of control and manipulate the whole group by using the fear from the beast. He kind of uses that "If you don't follow me bad things will happen to you" style to have power over the group.
Question:
What did Jack do to take power over the group? What skills did he need to do this? Why can he do this so well, compared with the other people such as Ralph?
fernando:
i believe that Ralph will take back his position. They won't join jack's because we can see that jack's way of treating other people is different.
my question:
Piggy's glasses are gone now, and the ability to make fire. So did they steal any other skills that piggy could do?
Tying-yih:
If Ralph thinks that Jack shouldn't have murdered Simon, why didn't he try to stop it? Was it because he was too afraid? Or was it that he didn't have enough power to stop them?
I think that he didn't stop it because he was too caught up in it, and was actually enjoying it when it happened. And not until afterwards does he realize what he has done.
Response:
In this chapter, Jack gains total power over the island and becomes the dictator. The beast within him shows, and his evil and savage side reveals completely.
The signal fire is neglected because of Simon's death, which leaves the boys feeling hopeless. Piggy's specs get stolen from Jack. The only thing left that symbolizes civilization is the conch. But now even the conch has lost its power and significance.
Jack tells his tribe that Simon was the beast and that the beast is still out there and is not dead. The boys are scared of the beast, so Jack uses this to gain power.
Why does Piggy deny that it was a murder and states that Simon's death was accidental?
Chuni:
I think Jack is the chief now because he offers food and fun- the things that kids like the most. The kids voluntarily abandoned their chances of being rescued because they've been stuck on that island for way too long and they have lost hope. They no longer believe that they're going to be rescued. Giving up hope of going home makes them have to adjust to the island life, and living in such an uncivilized place is turning them all into savages.
my question:
What's happening to Ralph and Piggy? Have they become savage?
Stanley:
I think Jack and his hunters needed the fire to cook their meat. I don't think Jack would have minded eating the meat raw, but one of his hunters had brought it up, and as leader, he had to prove that he could do anything. It was the first problem he faced as their new leader, and if he could prove to his hunters that he could do it, they would most likely listen to him without any questions. Also, Jack probably didn't like that Ralph and Piggy still have something that he didn't have, so out of anger, he decided to beat them up as well. Or it could be that they beated Ralph and his group up because it would have been easier to steal Piggy's glasses if there were no interference from Samneric or Ralph.
The fire was also suppose to be used at the feast, for purposes other than cooking meat. The power of having the fire meant more to Jack than just having cooked meat. Having feasts will earn Jack respect from him hunters, because everyone enjoyed themselves. And having a feast would also attract Ralph and Piggy's attention, and Jack could rub it in Ralph's face that he was the better leader, someone who could provide food and entertainment.
"'I thought they wanted the conch.'
-----------------------------------
Why did Piggy think that Jack and his hunters would want the conch when he knew that Jack didn't care about rules anymore?
Stanley:
Jack obviously doesn't care about the fire, but I think he is just stripping Ralph of all power. That way, there will be no one to compete with him. He'll be the only ruler on the island. Now that Jack is the only one who can make fire, it ruin's the boy's only chance of rescue as Jack will not try make any fire
My question:
why did Jack situate his fort on Castle Rock?
Response to Tyng yih
Question: If Ralph thinks that Jack shouldn't have murdered Simon, why didn't he try to stop it? Was it because he was too afraid? Or was it that he didn't have enough power to stop them?
Ralph lost all his power to Jack; therefore Jack controlled his mind somehow. All the hunting, singing, and circling as a ritual affected Ralph and Piggy’s mind, because everyone on the island participated, and peer pressure drove the desire to do the same. In this chapter, the conch lost its purpose: conch is only a useless, illuminating item. 'You could-' 'Call an assembly?' Ralph laughed sharply as he said the word and Piggy frowned. 'You're still chief.' Ralph laughed again. Ralph lost his desire as chief and he gave up just because he felt that no one supported all the regulations. Living in the wilderness, the boys have shown their inner savageness that had been repressed for years by civilization. The outburst of this anger, savagery, and instinctive desire like food and sex came upon the boys. They became mature physically, however they are still ignorant about what will happen to them. They are not conscious about this situation.
My Question:
The title of Chapter 10 is the “Shell and the Glasses”, what does Golding want to contrast, foreshadow, or signify? Why did Jack and his hunters steal Piggy’s glasses, but not the conch? Does this mean the conch is losing power? And what is the purpose of taking Piggy’s glasses? Does Piggy’ glasses symbolize anything?
Sandra: Piggy denies that Simon’s killing was accidental because maybe he wanted to make Ralph and himself feel better since he was already guilty
To Robert:
I think Ralph laughed because he believes he has no more authority over the other kids. He believes that no one would listen to him except maybe Sam, Eric, Piggy, and a little of the littluns. If he calls an assembly, he is scared that no one would bother to come: especially Jack’s assembly and maybe some of the littluns too.
I think Sam, Eric, and Piggy’s decision to stay with Ralph is right. In my opinion, I think Ralph is still the ideal leader. Unlike Jack, he is absolutely civilized and actually still has the idea of wanting to get rescued. Also, unlike Jack, Ralph is not a tyranny and would definitely not punish fellow citizens for just a minor fault they made.
The only problem they face now is the need of fire. Without fire, Ralph is nothing, because his main idea is to keep a fire up so ships far away could see them. Without the fire, they are hopeless. Even people a few miles out the sea wouldn’t be able to see them. Now, Ralph and his assembly faces the difficult task of trying to get fire. If Ralph does successfully get fire, then they would hopefully prosper again.
Question:
What do you think will happen to Ralph’s assembly because of the loss of their main source of fire provider? Would they find a substitute for the glasses? Or would they try to break into Jack’s fort at night and steal the spectacles back.
Stanley: They want the fire for cooking the meat, and they need to use the glasses as burning glass in order to start a fire.
KK: I don't think Piggy has lost any of his intelligence, but it's, again, like video games - you get caught up and addicted to it. It's the "id" that oversurfaced. Now Piggy is trying to regain his "superego."
Chuni: I think the reason why the kids are willing to sacrifice the chance to be rescued and instead become savage and hunt is because Ralph's idea seems a little fake. After so long, they can scarcely believe that anyone will come rescue them - they are beginning to forget all about the word 'rescue' (you can see this happening with Samneric, Piggy and Ralph "What's the good?" part)
Another reason is probably because the appeal of Jack's group - meat, hunting, spears - everything a typical little boy wants. It's very luring, and many of the boys succumb to this.
Chuni,
Why is he the chief now? Why do you think the kids would voluntarily abandon the chances of being rescued and turn into mindless savages?
Don't you think it's obvious that the kids simply don't care about being rescued? Living on the island has twisted their minds and turned them into ruthless beasts. To them, life's all about the hunting, the killing, the gore, and basically all the freedom that wouldn't exist once they are rescued. They don't have to follow the rules; there are no rules.
Jack is the leader now because he has overthrown Ralph, their former chief. The majority of them enjoy their new way of life. The others may resent Jack's dictatorship, but after seeing Roger's true side, it's smart of them not to rebel.
I find it interesting how in the tribe meeting, “a savage raised his hand and the chief turned a bleak, painted face toward him.” If they were savage, why would one of them raise a hand to speak? That act of raising one’s hand to speak is integrally part of classroom rules, and therefore part of society’s rules. However, the children are far away from society, and they are aware of that, too. Why would they still act like they’re in a classroom, with the chief as the teacher? I think this shows that however much Jack might despise Ralph’s ‘civilized’ way of ruling, with meetings and a democracy-like government, he can’t help but also conform to old habits- habits ingrained into his mind from early childhood.
Question: Were Eric and Ralph fighting with each other, thinking that the other person was a savage from Jack’s camp? Did they know that, but were only too prideful to admit that they had been fighting with a comrade?
Angela: What has Roger done to show them his true side? What is his true side?
"He's going to beat Wilfred." "What for?" Robert shook his head doubtfully. "I don't know. He didn't say. He got angry and made us tie Wilfred up. He's been"--- he giggled excitedly---"he's been tied for hours, waiting---"
Why did Jack want to beat Wilfred up?
Bess: Maybe Jack wants the conch to get absolute control over the other kids and samneric. I think that he needs the conch so that he can ultimately eliminate Ralph's position of being the leader. By taking away the conch, it also takes away Ralph's only object of authority. If he doesnt have the conch he doesnt have the power to call all the little kids together and have a meeting to get things in order. According to his rule, he then doesnt have the right to speak to his crowd, to speak over everyone else. With out the conch, there will be utter chaos, and Jack pretty much wins.
Weifan,
I disagree with you on your view about spotless protagonist and purely evil antagonist. I think Simon is a protagonist and he’s innocent and kind at least throughout the whole story. Jack, on the other hand, I think is evil.
“’ He’s going to beat Wilfred.’
‘What for?’
Robert shook his head doubtfully.
‘I don’t know. He didn’t say. He got angry and made us tie Wilfred up. He’s been’…he giggled excitedly…’he’s been tied up for hours, waiting…’” pg.159
If that’s not pure evil, then I don’t know what is. He’s punishing his own member of his tribe for no reason.
Ralph and Piggy are becoming more savage as they stay on the island. Ralph doesn’t even remember what the fire was for. Apparently Ralph heard Simon, but instead of saving him, he joins the chant; Piggy, too! Here I agree with you, the dark side of humanity is still wired in their blood.
Tyng-yih: Even though Jack was against the murder of Simon he couldn’t stop it. However the reason behind this was that he didn’t even recognize Simon through the madness inside him and by joining in with everyone else, he killed Simon.
The main reason he joined in the beating of Ralph was because he was completely unaware that he was even doing it in the first place. He was taken over by the savageness within him so he couldn’t tell right from wrong. He still had savageness inside him and it blinded him completely.
He was also a bit unaware of what he was doing in the first place. “I wasn’t scared,” said Ralph slowly, “I don’t know what I was.” He was subconsciously attacking Simon with the beast inside of him. He didn’t realize it because something had completely taken over Ralph, his mind and his body a whole.
It wasn’t that Ralph had no power to stop Jack and his group from attacking Simon or because he was afraid. It was simply because he didn’t even know he was doing it in the first place. The savageness had infected him so deeply that it led him to an unconscious state of wildness. Where he ended up killing Simon in all that madness.
Chuni
Jack is the chief because almost all of the biguns and littluns have all gone over to his side. In the beginning of the chapter, Ralph asks Piggy if Piggy is the only one left, and we find that only Piggy and Samneric follow Ralph along with some littluns. He is also the chief because everyone listens to him now that he is making everyone happy with his abundance of meat and his assurance that he will be able to keep the beast away. I think that the children would voluntarily become "mindless savages" because in their minds, they do not see themselves as savages. They see themselves as merely hunters trying to feed themselves and their tribe, and also trying to keep the beast away. I think that they would voluntarily leave because hunting pigs every day and having a catchy chant and being with the group sounds much better than being stuck on some mountain all day maintaining a fire in the hope that a ship will come when it might never come. Also, with Ralph, there is a lot less hunting involved and much more sitting around so that there is not really much to do. I think that the kids chose to become savages because it is much more appealing to them, and since they are still children, they just want to have fun.
I think that the glasses symbolize innocence. The more time that the kids spend on the island, the more deteriorated the specs become. Piggy first loses one eye, and now it is completely gone. When Piggy loses the first lens, the island seems to be starting to enter complete disorder. Now, with Piggy's glasses gone, the island is now fully enveloped by the savagery among the children.
Question
"'Piggy.'
'Uh?'
'That was murder.'
'You stop it,' said Piggy shrilly. What good're you...we was scared...'We was scared...anything might have happened. It wasn't-what you said.'" (pg 156)
Why does Piggy so vehemently disagree with the fact that they were involved in Simon's killing? Why won't he just admit that they were a part of it? Why is Ralph's reaction different? Why is Ralph trying to accept that he was part of it as well? What does this difference between their two reactions tell you about their character? Do you think that their character will help them get off the island?
“'Well?’
‘But didn’t we, didn’t we…?’
He squirmed and looked down.
‘No!’
In the silence that followed, each savage flinched away from his individual memory.
‘No! How could we…kill…it?’ pg 160
They still didn’t realize who they killed? They still think they attacked the beast? What does “how could we kill it” mean? What does “each savage flinched away from his individual memory” mean? Also, notice the author directly called them savages; what does that signify?
"Piggy."
"Uh?"
"That was Simon."
"You said that before."
"Piggy."
"Uh?"
"That was murder."
In the last chapter, Simon was brutally murdered by Jack and his hunter. Question: If Ralph thinks that Jack shouldn't have murdered Simon, why didn't he try to stop it? Was it because he was too afraid? Or was it that he didn't have enough power to stop them?
This question was a bit flawed because the boys didn't know that it was Simon who was walking out of the woods. They thought that the beast had finally shown itself, so they simply did what Jack has been saying, "If we find the beast, I'll kill it."
Now to answer your question, Ralph didn't stop Jack's pack from killing Simon because they were all hyper, and all the adrenaline was still in their blood from the dance, so Ralph was caught in the chaos too. I don't think that Ralph was afraid to step up and challenge Jack, but Ralph himself was very hyper. Its like getting a book worm to play computer, and that person gets caught in the world of video games, and couldn't get out in time. Although Ralph did lose most of his authority over the boys, Ralph had no intention of stopping Jack.
My question:
Why won't Piggy admit that he joined the boys in murdering Simon? What is the significance of this?
To fernando:
I believe that Raph isn't going to get his power back though they haven't lost their interest to home and i believe that they aren't going to join Jack as well.
In the End when Jacks goes to Raphs part of the island and steales Piggys glass. Why was piggys first reaction for the conch agian?
Jack already said it was unless in his part of the island.
Chuni:
I think Golding said that Jack was chief now because he has completely taken control over the island when he took Piggy’s glasses away from him. Ralph, having lost the power of the conch, can only rely on Piggy. When Piggy’s glasses were stolen, it meant that Ralph has completely lost his power and that Jack has taken over. I think that the boys have chosen mindless savages over being rescued because they want to fulfill their inner desires and the island was the place that they could do it. If they were rescued, then they’d have to be in a society with lots of rules and regulations and the adults will push them around. They wouldn’t be able to fulfill their desires.
Piggy’s glasses is important to them because it creates fire. The broken glasses symbolizes that the last hope of getting rescued was gone, they wouldn’t be able to make fire again. Jack wanted to steal Piggy’s glasses because he wants complete control. If they didn’t have glasses, then they are useless.
“It was an accident,” said Piggy suddenly, “that’s what it was. An accident.” His voice shrilled again. “Coming in the dark- he hadn’t no business crawling like that out of the dark. He was batty. He asked for it.” He gesticulated widely again. “It was an accident.”
Why does Piggy repeatedly state that the death of Simon was an accident, but then in turn contradict himself by saying Simon caused his own death? I think that Piggy and Ralph actually feel guilty that they killed Simon, but they try to escape reality and deny it. “We left early,” Piggy said quickly, “because we were tired.” (page 158)
Ralph, slowly becoming savage, does not want to admit that he took part in the murder of Simon. Piggy and Samneric don’t want to face the truth either. All three insist that they left early, and didn’t know what happened afterwards. I think this denial signifies the guilt of murdering Simon in the four boys.
“I thought they wanted the conch.” (page 168)
Why is Piggy so protective of the conch?
fernando: i think ralph is going to lose power, and jack will therefore gain all power on land. =) but it is up to what they decide to do for that to happen.
yerry: jack started to lean towards savagery at the beginning of the story. i think he was destined to become the savage, because it was still ralph who appointed him as the hunter, which introduced the excitement of killing to jack.
My Questions:
does piggy's specs represent something else more important now? will the boys be rescued? is jack good enough to be leadership material?
KK - I think this shows us that there is still a little bit of human in Piggy. Try to remember what you were like when you were around Piggy's age. Let's just say around 10 years old, and you're in third grade. If you did something wrong, what would be the first thing you'd do? I would probably make up an excuse or try to blame it on someone else. I'm sure you were the same. Everyone was. It's part of being a human being to deny what you've done wrong or try to escape responsibility. But this will be changed as you grow up and learn that doing those things is actually wrong. Before you do, I think all of us would have did the same thing as Piggy,.
"It was an accident," said Piggy suddenly, "that's what it was. An accident." His voiced shrilled again.
Signs of this is showed when Piggy tries again and again to make up an excuse to make himself and Ralph feel better. The fact that he says it over and over shows us that he realizes he has done something wrong, and if you think about it, he HAS. Killing someone when you're 10? That is seriously disturbing. If you think about it, the first impression these kids give you is them being a bunch of little opera singers. Opera singing. Music. Sounds peaceful and angelic. Ironically, these "angels" start killing people. I think, again, the whole idea of dehumanization is brought up again, as it always has been throughout the novel.
Lastly, I have a question. Most of us know Piggy dies, which I think is ironic, but what I want to know is - What do you think will end up of Ralph? Will he live his life with Samneric and a few littluns until someone comes to rescue them? Or will he join Jack and his savages?
Kevin: I think Ralph's assembly will continue to fall apart, now that they've lost the advantage over the savages of fire. It's impossible to find a substitute, because no one else there has glasses. And the assembly of four weak boys will definitely not try to use force and take the glasses back against a tribe of savages defended by a fort.
This chapter I have seen the true Jack, the other true side of him. I found out that when he needs something he will use violence to get it, no matter what. In this chapter, Jack took away Piggy’s broken glass, because they needed fire by that. So in the night, Jack, Roger, and Maurice fought with Ralph, Samneric, and Piggy, then they took away the glass.
“Of course! If we don't make smoke –“ – Ralph, page 163
Why did Ralph forget about the usage of the smoke? Was he too into the hunting or what? What made him forgot about the smoke and the fire? Also that time Samneric were asking why they needed fire and smoke. Doesn’t that mean that, in the beginning, all the fire things that Ralph did was nothing? Why can they forget about it? All Ralph did was nothing? Or what?
In this chapter, we can also tell that the children want to go home as soon as possible, for example, Ralph. He’s been thinking about the bus, plane, and even train for rescue. But these are all the things that the island doesn't have. I think it kind of symbolizes the children’s feeling of missing about their home and family.
Why does Ralph repeatedly state that they are the murderers, and that they caused Simon's death? Was it the realization of him becoming savage, and he thinks theres no going back?
I think Jack is either paranoid or power-crazed. When he says, "They will. They'll try to spoil things we do..." he's almost sure Ralph's side will attack, but they don't. Then, as if to provoke Ralph, he steals Piggy's glasses. If Ralph and Jack do fight, it is obvious that Jack's side will win, having more older children. Question: Do you think Jack takes the glasses [not only for fire, but also] to make Ralph attack him only so he can prove that he, not Ralph, deserves the role as leader?
[I just wanted to mention this:]
"Roger, sitting on the very edge of the cliff, looked somberly back at the island as he worked his fingers at a loose tooth." (pg 159)
This quote really surprised me. These children are so young, they haven't lost all their teeth yet. As I read the novel, I couldn't help but picture these kids as teenagers, but this made me realize they are barely even that. I feel really sorry for these kids. To commit murder, or let the savage side of oneself control him must be extremely difficult to cope with. Why would Golding use children in this novel instead of older people?
Ted: Yes, I think he's the only one who has actually realized and openly acknowledges that the boys have all gone savage, even though he persuades Sam and Eric he wasn't there. Ralph and Piggy both know it was murder, though unlike Ralph, Piggy insists it was an accident. At this point, I think Ralph symbolizes civilization while Piggy also represents civilization, but in a different way. Similar to the way adults may cover things up as to quicken the speed of moving on, Piggy says it's an accident so the boys would forget about Simon, and get on with their lives on the island. He might also say it so the boys won't think too much of it.
IN response to my own question:
I really think that Puggy is trying to avoid that fact that he was in the dance too. I agree with Liang, because if i were a 10 year old, I'd also make up an excuse to cover myself up from that shame. Besides, I think that Piggy is actually pretty tough, for a 10 year old. At least he doest et completely dehumanized like Jack. But all humans make mistakes right? So I don't think i should blame Piggy.
CHUNI:
1) Like said before, the kids wanted fun. Thats not it though. Jack and Roger are terrors, who force people into their tribe. Also, rescue isn't along the way yet, so they lose their patience and turn to Jack. Ralph, Piggy, and Simon had been patient, thats why they worked hard to get the fire/smoke signal going.
2) Piggy's glasses were the only things that could make fire on the island. Fire was everything. Food, life, warmth, safety....rescue. His glasses is the key to life, it symbolizes life.
ROBERT:
Ralph was probably giving in to the whole thing. He basically insane.
ALBERT:
Sam and Eric were probably maturer than those kids. Sticking to Ralph is actually a smart decision; it was hope and rescue. Samneric wasn't impatient like the other kids, so thats why he's still in Ralph's group.
Liang:
I dont think that Ralph will ever join Jack's group.He still maintains a sense of morality; being rescued. I'm pretty sure that rescue is still his first priority, but sometimes it fluctuates. In the novel, Golding slowly kills Ralph's friends, which many seem sad, but the point is to actually to strengthen Ralph's mind.
JASPER:
Ralph is still more honest than Piggy. Ralph admits that he was in the dance, but Piggy is the opposite.Piggy probably says those things because he didn't want to make Ralph feel worse. In other words, he doesn't want to make Ralph give up; Piggy senses that Ralph is at his limits already.
Ted L.: I think that Ralph keeps saying that they are the murderers of Simon because he thought that he should have done something there to stop it.
“- and then, the beast might try to come in. You remember how he crawled…” Jack said. (160)
Jack and the others who were doing the dance during the festival really thought that Simon was the beast. But somehow they don’t remember killing anything, most of the littluns said it was a good dance. Now, I’d say that the chant takes over control of their mind and consciousness of what they are doing, because when the chant stopped, their conscious return and don’t remember anything they did, but only the chant.
Jack had become a savage, because he remembers nothing after the dance, only thinking the beast that came in their circle when they’re doing the dance. One most important part is, he thought the beast is still somewhere in the hill, because he said, “He came disguised. He may come again even though we gave him the head of our kill to eat. So watch; and be careful.” He had completely ignores the fact that they actually kill something during the dance that festival night. Through Jack’s speech, and his reaction towards the beast, made me believe that he no longer think logically, or remember anything correctly from either what they did or what they saw.
Posting questions:
1. What happened to everyone after the terrible night? why did some of them not remember that they had kill something/someone during the festival night?
2. Why did Jack not remember the part that they had kill something they thought was a beast? But only thinking that the beast is still somewhere in the forest? "He came disguised. He may come again even though we gave him the head of our kill to eat. So watch; and be careful."
In this chapter it tells us that Ralph is also part of Simon's murder. The only one that witness the murder and wasn't part of the murder is piggy, you might call piggy a bystander which would have been as guilty as the murder. However Piggy was powerless at the time he coudn't have done anything and he can only see with one eye so he shouldn't be marked as guilty.
We have seen in this chaptor how piggy and Ralph react to the murder. I really hope in the on comming chapter how Jack and his followers react. From this chapterwe can see that Jack isn't shaken with the murder, this proves that he is completely taken over by his id side. It seems that Jack has completetly beat Ralph however if Jack's people are reacts differently than Jack than they might go back to join Ralph.
Kimi:
I completely agree with what you said. I noticed Jack steals things from others to get what they wanted. And to your question : Why did Ralph forget about the usage of the smoke? Was he too into the hunting or what? What made him forgot about the smoke and the fire?
I think it's because he had been thinking too much about this leadership thing between himself and Jack. Right now, Jack and the beast is something that has occupied his head from remembering about smoke and the fire. I believe the pressure on the island made him stress and didn't press on the "hope" to be rescue by making the fire.
Jasper L. : I think Piggy is trying to deny what he did because he feels ashamed and because he' just can't get himself to accept the fact that he has done something wrong. He has always tried to do the right thing, and here he is, having done wrong, and he can't bring himself to admit it for fear of the shame that would hit him if he did. He is trying to make up excuses because he doesn't know what else to do.
Ted Wu: Jack steals Piggy's glasses but not the conch because he doesn't see any value in the conch. All the conch was before was a symbol of authority, and besides the meaning behind it, it was just a conch. However, because the kids have become almost entirely savage, they have either forgotten the meaning that the conch represents or don't care anymore. Thus, because there is nothing meaningful to them in the conch, they see no point in trying to take it, since they (or specifically Jack) believes that he has authority even without the conch. When meanings of symbols are changed, the object that is the symbol either loses or gains value. In this case, to Jack and his tribe, it loses value.
Conversely, they would take Piggy's glasses since it can make fire, and to them this is actually something useful. Just as savages have primitive needs such as a fire, these kids value fire. It represents the fact that they have power over Ralph and the others who didn't join the tribe, since they now have the power to make the fire. In a way, the symbol of authority changes from the conch to Piggy's glasses.
My question:
Why do Samneric stay with Ralph and not join Jack's tribe? The other biguns all join the tribe. Is there a difference in their beliefs and wants?
N“You got lost after the...” Piggy cleaned his lens. “After the feast,” said Sam in a stifled voice. Eric nodded. “Yes, after the feast.” “We left early, “said Piggy quickly, “because we were tired” “so did we---“ “---very early---“ “we were very tired.” Sam touched a scratch on his forehead and then hurriedly took his hand away. Eric fingered his split lip. “Yes. We were very tired,” repeated Sam, “so we left early. Was it a good...” (158)
Why does Samneric feel guilty about going to the feast?
HAS ANYONE SEEN MY LORD OF THE FLIES BOOK? IT HAS NOTES WRITTEN ON THE BOOK IN PURPLE INK!!
The power has shifted to Jack on the island, and Ralph, Piggy, Sam, Eric, and a few littluns are left in Ralph's group. Ralph and Piggy have a conversation in the beginning of the chapter. Piggy refuses to accept any guilt for the murder of Simon, while Ralph insists that the death was murder. What does this show about Piggy, who is usually right because of his intellect? Why does Ralph react so depressingly when Piggy rationalizes their roles in Simon's death?
Jackie: I seriously I think that Jack just wanted to look for a fight. He wants to show off his power to Ralph, and scare them a bit.
"Roger, sitting on the very edge of the cliff, looked somberly back at the island as he worked his fingers at a loose tooth."
This quote really surprised me. These children are so young, they haven't lost all their teeth yet. As I read the novel, I couldn't help but picture these kids as
CHUNI:
The kids have been wishing of being rescued since they got on the island. But the kids started to give up and want to stay on the island. They follow Jack because he's more fun and they can eat meat. Their id came out and they wanted to hunt and have fun. So they joined Jack's side. When they were with Ralph, they were still sort of civilized and surpresed by the super ego. But they have another choice and having fun with Jack. Of course they would pick Jack.
The glasses symbolized intellect in the group. Now that the glasses was broken, they lost all hope of being civilized.
What is the significance of Piggy trying to protect the conch when Jack actually comes for the glasses? Why does he feel that it is more important? Does is show a difference between Piggy and Jack and what they value(conch or specs) ?
whew just in time
(Jackie) A: Um, to answer your first question, I think that Roger had a loose tooth because of all that has happened, fights, hunts, bad meals, and so and so. He isn’t really a youngster, or a littleun, (coz hes a bigun! xD), so these kids aren’t exactly the helpless little kids you have in mind.
However, it is true that they are younger than us somewhat, so this is why Golding’s use of kids as example of the decline of civilization once society’s laws are gone is perfect. In our minds, a kid is an example of purity, innocence, and mankind without the evil, so when the kids first land up on a deserted island, they all seem to be able to work together, with no evil in their hearts. If they were adults instead, we as the reader would start the book suspicious of the adults’ inner thoughts and emotions, and if they became savage, we would feel that the adults had been corrupted before. Also, there is a high probability that the adults wouldn’t have been affected anyway, because they have been affected by society longer, and the “golden rules” more firmly drilled into their minds, and would be able to work together toward a common goal, mainly being rescued.
The kids, being untainted by society’s good or bad, are like a blank sheet, so I think that Golding uses the kids’ innocence as a way to show what humankind would be like without the influence of society. Also, it is more shocking to the reader when the once good hearted boys give in to their inner id and turn savage, as opposed to adults who have already experienced the evils of mankind turning, or maybe not at all. You were shocked at the age of the boys and their loss of innocence, and so will most other readers (including me). Golding’s use of boys as examples of civilization turning savage serves to bring attention to the power and lure of the wild, and it being so strong as to attract and overwhelm society’s influence on the boys.
-Werewolf
(Jackie) A: Um, to answer your first question, I think that Roger had a loose tooth because of all that has happened, fights, hunts, bad meals, and so and so. He isn’t really a youngster, or a littleun, (coz hes a bigun! xD), so these kids aren’t exactly the helpless little kids you have in mind.
However, it is true that they are younger than us somewhat, so this is why Golding’s use of kids as example of the decline of civilization once society’s laws are gone is perfect. In our minds, a kid is an example of purity, innocence, and mankind without the evil, so when the kids first land up on a deserted island, they all seem to be able to work together, with no evil in their hearts. If they were adults instead, we as the reader would start the book suspicious of the adults’ inner thoughts and emotions, and if they became savage, we would feel that the adults had been corrupted before. Also, there is a high probability that the adults wouldn’t have been affected anyway, because they have been affected by society longer, and the “golden rules” more firmly drilled into their minds, and would be able to work together toward a common goal, mainly being rescued.
The kids, being untainted by society’s good or bad, are like a blank sheet, so I think that Golding uses the kids’ innocence as a way to show what humankind would be like without the influence of society. Also, it is more shocking to the reader when the once good hearted boys give in to their inner id and turn savage, as opposed to adults who have already experienced the evils of mankind turning, or maybe not at all. You were shocked at the age of the boys and their loss of innocence, and so will most other readers (including me). Golding’s use of boys as examples of civilization turning savage serves to bring attention to the power and lure of the wild, and it being so strong as to attract and overwhelm society’s influence on the boys.
-Werewolf
oops. ms lin, can you please delete the extra copy for me?
thanks
Why do Ralph and his followers believe in the beasts? Before, Piggy and Ralph thought that the beasts aren't real.
Why did Ralph keep sniggering when Piggy was talking about being rescued? (page 165, bottom-half)
Jasper: I think this means that power is more important than intelligence/rescue. Piggy's glasses can represent either intelligence (because it can make fire), or else rescue (because it can make fire to rescue the kids). This could mean that Ralph and his followers don't want to fall into the hands of Jack. Piggy, perhaps, fears loss in power. He doesn't believe completely in hope.
I think we're all asking the same question after reading this chapter: why did Piggy deny his savage actions? Of course, anybody would probably want to deny and comfort himself when he killed somebody close to him, but the way Piggy says, it, it's more like he wants to push the responsibility to Simon/Jack. Originally knowing Piggy, we would assume he'd be the resonable person he was and live up to his bad behavior, but instead, he makes it seem like it wasn't his fault. Would it be reasonable to say it was Jack's fault? Simon is definately out of the question because he meant well for the others.
It was kind of weird to me when Ralph actually forgot the meaning of the fire. When he blanked out and Piggy noted "How else are we going to be rescued?", it was kind of scary how Ralph forgot the meaning of his own plan. How long were they on the island? Perhaps if the time were really long, like a month or two, then I suppose it would be reasonable for one to forget. The book makes it seem like the story is only a week or two though...
“ I can’t carry more wood…I’m tired” - Eric
“We’ve got to keep it going.” – Ralph
I’m too tired. And what’s the good?” – Eric
In the novel, the fire symbolizes hope and it also is their belief that sooner or later they are going to get rescued. In chapter 10, the twins started to lose hope. They no longer seem to care keeping the fire going and that it is going to help them get rescued. Even Ralph thought it’s hopeless:
”We got to get out of this.”
“What’d you mean?”
“Get rescued.”
For the first time that day, and despite the crowding blackness, Ralph sniggered.
It is unbelieveable that Ralph said that when he was the one who got angry all the time when the fire had gone out. It seems like Piggy is now the only one that still has faith.
KEVIN:
I think that Ralph no longer has power among the boys. He lost nearly everybody to Jack’s group. I don’t think that Ralph will try to break into Jack’s fort and steal back the specs, because he doesn’t want to act savage. After seeing what they did at the feast, murdering Simon, I don’t think Ralph would want to act like that again. I’m predicting that Ralph would go and try to talk with Jack, or try to persuade Jack to give back the glasses, though I doubt that it would work. “ Don’t you understand, Piggy? The things we did—“(157)
Tyng-yih~If Ralph thinks that Jack shouldn't have murdered Simon, why didn't he try to stop it? Was it because he was too afraid? Or was it that he didn't have enough power to stop them?
I think he just got carried away, the chant seemed to be like a spell. Even innocent Piggy was included in the murder of Simon.
Allen: I think he wouldn't admit that he murdered Simon because before landing on this island, he was like a good and very kind person. He is afraid to admit the truth that he actually killed someone, so he tries covering it up with excuses (like blaming Simon).
“It was an accident,” said Piggy suddenly, “that’s what it was. An accident.” From this quote we can see that Piggy is afraid to admit the truth that he had been in the chaos last night, where they killed Simon. In this chapter we could see that all the children are afraid to speak of Simon’s name, instead they say “He…”. The strange part is that even Ralph and Piggy, whom has tried to keep a sense of society and order, has turned more towards the savageness. Instead they tried to make up excuses to convince themselves they didn’t do anything wrong—“We was scared!” said Piggy excitedly. “Anything might have happened. It wasn’t—what you said.” and “…They never noticed in the dark. Anyway you said I was only on the outside.” And Piggy even tried to blame it on Simon—“Coming in the dark—he hadn’t no business crawling like that out of the dark. He was batty. He asked for it.”
“I’m frightened. Of us. I want to go home. Oh God, I want to go home.” Ralph realizes that everyone is turning evil, and going towards the savage side. I think he is scared that they might end up killing each other because he says—“I’m frightened. Of us.”, and now he wishes he never had been in this mess. Right now, their island is no longer a fun, adventurous paradise, but instead a evil and dangerous island. Even Ralph flinches at the slightest touch—He touched Ralph’s bare shoulder and Ralph shuddered at the human contact.I think this is significant because their trust for each other has been destroyed by their beast-like-selves. They can no longer trust each other after the “accident”. Danger lurks everywhere, including in themselves.
On page 161, I didn’t get the part where Maurice said-“But what happens if we meet—“? Meet what? The beast or Ralph and the others?
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