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"Fancy thinking the Beast was something you could hunt and kill" (143)!
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2008
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- Please post your response for chapter 12
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- LORD OF THE FLIES Reader Response Journal
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82 comments:
When Ralph went to find Jack, Roger was there telling him to go away. Later he threw stones at them "aiming to miss." I found this part kind of weird because you can't say that it's superego that's supressing Roger to throw the rock at them. Later in the chapter, Roger rolled a huge rock, not aiming to miss, and thus killing Piggy. Why didn't Roger throw the rocks at them. Does Roger only have a grudge against Piggy, or something else? What's Jack's intention in killing Piggy?
When Ralph goes to Jack's end of the island to get Piggy's glasses back, why doesn't he use a civilized, nice manner instead of insisting for an assembly, then fighting Jack? Couldn't he negotiate? It might've saved Piggy's life. What drove him to so confidently assert his power over them, when he in fact had none - "I'm calling an assembly"?
johnathan: I think when everyone was chanting and "the intention of a charge was forming among them... the storm of sound beat at them, an incantation of hatred (180)", Roger got swept up in the excitement (as so many boys did before in the past), and so he did something crazy he usually wouldn't have done. "Roger, with a sense of delirious abandonment (180)" was when the id came out. It was different from the Roger who threw the stones aiming to miss. The group's behavior definitely has an impact on each of the boys' actions.
After Golding takes away everything from Ralph, Ralph has nothing left. First, Simon died,then Piggy died, and the conch exploded into fragments. Does Ralph still have anything left? Or is he hopeless? Also, Ralph does not seem sad or angry for the death of Piggy. Why?
"Then the sea breathed again in a long, slow sigh, the water boiled white and pink over the roc; and when it went, sucking back again, the body of Piggy was gone." (pg. 181)
Why is the significance of this? Why does both Simon and Piggy's body go out to the sea?
“You can take the spears if you want but I shan’t. What’s the good? I’ll have to led like a dog, anyhow. Yes, laugh. Go on, laugh. There’s them on this island as would laugh at anything. And what happened? What’s the grownups goin’ to think. Young Simon was murdered. And there was that other kid what had a mark on his face. Who’s seen him since we first come here?” – Piggy, page 171
The confusion in this quote was that Piggy said that Simon was being murdered, but in the earlier chapter he said it was an accident. Now he says that Simon is being murdered. Did he notice that he was just running away from the death of Simon? Did he realize that it isn't an accident?
The other point about this is that, I think it shows the childish side of Piggy when he says that it was an accident, but now he have realize that he was showing his childish side. I think Golding wants to tell the readers that whenever people are facing a major or any kind of problem, they mostly hide from it, but in the end you realize the way you handles the problem, then you face it.
Also what is the significant of Piggy’s death? Losing hope? Or voice of reasoning? What will happen to Ralph? Will he die too? Will everybody survive? Not only these are the problem, but also the hunters like Jack, they don't understand and don't know the usage of the fire. Why? Is it because they are too into the hunting and savage life? Why is Golding doing this? What is Golding tries to tell the reader the action of Jack and Piggy's death?
Diane: I think by that time, it was hard to negotiate nicely with Jack and his tribe. The hunters all had painted faces, carried spears, and listened to no one except for Jack. And, also Ralph didn't have anything that Jack needed. Jack didn't need the conch, because he gave up on rules a long time ago, and he already stole the fire from Ralph and Piggy's spectacles.
I think if Jack was willing to talk "nicely" Ralph would have, too. Ralph would have been reasonable as long as he can get the fire back.
I dont think Ralph called the assembly to flaunt what little power he had over the savages, because he knew that he had none. I think he called the assembly to make sure that everyone was there when he made the announcement. He wanted to talk to Jack in front of everyone, because maybe he had thought that in front of all his hunters, Jack would do anything unreasonable.
Once Piggys has died, do you think all hope of rescue has lost? Because now that there is only Ralph to keep the fire going, which is not enough. What will become of the kids now?
Robert: I think this signifiy how Piggy and Simon are alike since they oth stood for Ralph, backed him up and also backed up the civilized manner of the children.
He tried to remember.
"Smoke,"he said, "we want smoke."
He turned on the twins fiercely. "I said smoke'! We've got to have smoke" THere was silence, except for the multitudinous murmur of the bees. As last PIggy spoke, kindly. " 'Course we have. 'Cos the smoke's a signoal and we can't be rescued if we dont't have smoke." "I knew that!" shouted Ralph. He pulled his arm away from PIggy, "Are you suggesting-?"
-----------------------------------
We know that Ralph did forget about why he needed the fire, just like how he forgot about what the conch was for. Why did he forge about the things that he said were the most important?
Now we know that the two symbols inthe novel, the lord of the flies, and the shell conch, are destroyed. Ralph's alone now.
Will he strike back?
will he beat jack?
Robert:
I think when the ocean takes away Simon and Piggy, it's like taking away civilization from the island. To me Piggy and Simon symbolized civilization, so taking away Simon and Piggy seems like stripping away civilization from the island. After Simon died most of the boys followed Jack and they all turned into savages. Roger pushed the rock down killing Piggy and they also tied up sameneric which shows their barbaric side. After killing Piggy there is only Ralph left that is more civilized. I think Ralph will soon turn barbaric.
Question:
“Piggy lifted the white magic shell....Piggy still holding out the talisman, the fragile, shining beauty of the shell." Golding keeps describing the shell as a magical and ethereal object. Do you think this symbolizes something?
Kristin: I think the washing away of the body symbolizes the decline of the civilization; Piggy and Simon was the only people who knew some truth about what was going on or held the key to rescue. The passing away of these two showed that civilization on the island is now hopeless, completely impossible. Simon was the only one to know that the beast was not real and that they were scared of the savageness they possessed. He was also the only one to know that the beast they saw was just a dead parachute man. Piggy was the most mature there, although he does not have much courage. He knew what they must do, such as building huts or producing smoke, and was almost the only one who stood up for Ralph and tried to enforce the rules Ralph had made. Such as in this chapter where Piggy decided to go to Jack’s tribe and force him to give him back his spectacles with the conch. Their bodies are washed away because it is as their influence has been washed away. What they did on the island, nobody remembers. It also symbolizes what they contributed are washed away. Simon’s knowledge of the beast and Piggy’s maturity has been lost and washed away forever from the island.
Why is it that when Ralph forgets what the fire was for and Piggy told him it was for rescue does Ralph get mad? Ahy why does Piggy agree with Ralph that he di not forget?
Does Ralph have any power left? He has lost both of his main supporters, Piggy and Simon. He also lost the conch. The conch was Ralph's symbol of leadership. The conch symbolized civilization, symbolized order over chaos. With the conch gone, is everything that Ralph stood for gone, is civilization at its end?
Diane: I think Ralph couldn't have avoided the fight because, Jack provoked him into fighting. I also don't think that Ralph had any other option except to knock some sense into Jack. If Ralph had tried to talk some sense into him, then Jack wouldn't have listened to him. Jack is extremely stubborn and does whatever he feels is right and obviously in that position Jack would not have listened to Ralph.
Jerry:
When Ralph fought Jack, he lost the fight and ran. I think that Jack and his group overpowers Ralph so much that Ralph doesn't have a chance to win. Jack's savageness further drives his aggresiveness towards killing. I think that Ralph is going to get killed, mainly because that he has just made himself Jack's major target. With Piggy, Sam, and Eric gone, Ralph is left alone to get killed by Jack. I think at the end, there is a high possibility that Ralph will get killed and Jack and his group will go back to the uncivilized state like the men who lived hundreds of thousands of years ago.
Question:
Most of the symbols in the story has been destroyed. Why does Golding want to destroy all the symbols? Is there a reason behind it?
Frank:
In Chapter 10, Ralph almost forgot about what the fire does and Piggy reminded him. In this chapter, Ralph was reminded once again, and he thinks that Piggy was implying that Ralph was becoming a savage when he said, “Are you suggesting -?” He couldn’t admit the fact that he is becoming savage too, he was the one that kept reminding others to keep the fire going and act civilized. If even Ralph forgets the purpose of the fire, then the chance of getting rescued becomes zero.
When Ralph insisted that he did not forget, Piggy agreed with him because he doesn’t want to cause more trouble. If Piggy immediately told Ralph that he has become a savage. Then Ralph would probably beat him up.
"The rock struck Piggy a glancing blow from chin to knee; the conch exploded into a thousand white fragments and ceased to exist."
Roger had loosened a giant boulder and it hurdled into Piggy along with the conch whihc shattered. Does this have any significance? The conch shattering and Piggy gettting killed with one blow of a giant boulder.
Robert,
Why does both Simon and Piggy's body go out to the sea?
I think by having their bodies float away, it means that they have finally escaped the horror on the island. Living there had been nothing but hell for them, after being ridiculed, insulted, and attacked. I think they are lucky to have left the island, since in contrast, everywhere else is paradise.
Now that Piggy and Simon are gone, what's going to happen to Ralph? Is he going to escape death, because he's the protagonist? Or will he be murdered? And if he does die, will the waves bring him away?
Response to Jonathan,
I think Roger did purposely "aim to miss" as an attempt to bring Ralph's delegation to leave. However, I do think it was part of his superego that brought him to miss. Roger was conditioned by his society to not do such barbaric things. Nevertheless, his ego to shield himself away from the truth that Ralph was talking about and hide behind his "mask" into savagery. A place where he did not have to worry about right and wrong or any other consequences. A place where he did not have to meet the truth. This intrusion by Ralph made him lose his sense of savagery in a way. So in one sense, the murder of Piggy was not of personal grudge but rather as his ego. This ego was what establishes his "savage" personal image. The image that he chose to shield himself.
=-=-=-=-=-=-=
In this chapter, despite the fact that Ralph knew that he was outnumbered and that his opponent was in an advantageously elevated position, he chose to fight with Jack. This clearly endangered Piggy and Samneric. This is also the event that led to Piggy's death. Why do you think he fought Jack in the first place? Why did he challenge them?
When Piggy asked “Which is better- to be a pack of painted Indians like you are, or to be sensible like Ralph is?” p.180 I think this quote shows how Piggy is trying to use his knowledge to wake the savage boys, but I think he failed. In fact, he sacrificed his life to try and gain back the pureness that he believed they once had. Piggy’s death marks the final destruction of the island. Is Piggy death similar to the death of Simon? I have noticed that Simon and Piggy died for similar reasons, both of them died because of telling the truth. Simon dies because he told the truth about the beast is not real, it’s the evilness of human, and Piggy died because he forced the savage boys to see their violent and insane behavior. I think the savage boys won’t accept the fact that their behavior is inappropriate, so they try to evade the truth by killing the people who forces them to realize it.
Will the savage boys kill the next person who wants to tell the truth of their behavior? (probably Ralph…)
Albert: since Ralph doesn't have Piggy's glasses, he is still as powerless as before. All the hope on the island is gone, and the island is completley dominated by savageness. I think Ralph is hopeless on his own and will definately get killed by Jack's group.
My Question:
Why does every person who dies' body fall into the sea? does the sea signify anything?
Response:
The boys at Jack’s tribe are in a dictated government. It seems like Jack is the king and there are the guards and “army” (hunters) that guard him. The guards wouldn’t let Ralph and Piggy go in; they are obeying Jack’s orders. It is clear that Jack holds absolute power in their part of the world now. However, “Roger took a small stone and flung it between the twins, aiming to miss” shows the nice side of the boys. In one of the previous chapters, there were two boys throwing rocks at the littluns, they were also aiming to miss. From their past experiences with adults, they know that throwing rocks at people is bad, but in their society now, Jack is saying that throwing rocks is good, so they still throw rocks, just that they aim to miss (they miss because of their experiences). [is that making any sense?!]
On page 181, the description of Piggy’s death “The rock struck Piggy a glancing blow from chin to knee; the conch exploded into a thousand white fragments and ceased to exist. Piggy, saying nothing, with no time for even a grunt, traveled through the air sideways from the rock, turning over as he went. The rock bounded twice and was lost in the forest. Piggy fell forty feet and landed on his back across the square red rock in the sea. His head and legs twitched a bit, like a pig’s after it has been killed. Then the sea breathed again in a long, slow sigh, the water sucking back again, the body of Piggy was gone” is different from Simon’s death in chapter 9. Simon’s body drifts away slowly, saying that he is fading away and not just disappearing like he’s not important. However, Piggy isn’t that important to the boys in the novel now, because he doesn’t have the glasses anymore, so Golding uses “the body of Piggy was gone” by saying that since Piggy isn’t important to the boys anymore, his death wouldn’t really change their life on the island.
Question: What does Golding want to tell us in this quote about Piggy?
[page 173]
“I knew that!” shouted Ralph. he pulled his arm away from Piggy. “Are you suggesting—”
I think that Ralph is more vulnerable now and he’s even asking help from Piggy in a respecting way. Is there any other significance of the quote?
Chuni: I think that Ralph has no choice now. He is basically risking everything.
My question is same as Johnathan. Why did Roger threw stones at Ralph's group "aiming to miss"? Why didn't he directly throw stones on them? And later, why did Roger kill Piggy with a boulder?
JERRY: I think the story is going to be tragic, and I don't think either Ralph will fight back. Since he is alone now, he has no supports. He is the last hope of civilization.
Response:
At the end of the chapter, when Ralph runs into the forest, Jack spoke angrily to Roger, “‘Why aren’t you on watch?’ Roger looked at him gravely. “I just came down-” The hangman’s horror clung round him. The chief said no more to him but looked down at Samneric.”
I couldn’t find the meaning of hangman’s horror, but it seems to imply an aura of morbidity. Is this to show that Roger is evil? That he is the real savage, and not Jack? Or does it just mean that he’s more influenced by the Beast?
I think Golding is finally revealing Roger’s real personality. From the context of “Roger edged past the chief, only just avoiding pushing him with his shoulder. The yelling ceased, and Samneric lay looking up in quiet terror. Roger advanced upon them as one wielding a nameless authority,” I think readers receive the impression that it is Roger, not Jack, who is in charge of the tribe. There is also the hint that Roger is the backbone and the main influence of the savagery. He can even cow Jack, the supposed leader, into submission.
In this chapter, when Ralph goes to find Jack, he takes the conch with him to remind the people of his authority. But the conch gets destroyed in this chapter, and it symbolizes the end of all civilization for Ralph. Piggy gets killed by Roger, and Sam and Eric get forced to join Jack's tribe. Ralph is now all on his own, and becomes the prey of Jack's tribe. I don't get how the boys in Jack's tribe want to be there, since Jack is so demanding and violent. Is it because of pressure? or because they really like it?
Bess: I think Ralph forgot the things he said was important, because he’s losing hope. Now that there is only Samneric, Piggy, and himself to try and get rescue, he thinks it’s impossible.
Jerry: Ralph had fight back, but he lost against them. Now that Jack has more power, I think Ralph wouldn’t dare to fight back again.
The title of this chapter is called “Castle Rock”. What do you think that Golding is trying to say in the title? Why did the author call name this chapter “Castle Rock”?
Haley- Why did Roger threw stones at Ralph's group "aiming to miss"? Why didn't he directly throw stones on them?
I think maybe he is starting to realize that Jack is not a good chief after all, but since he can not show his thoughts now, because he is afraid of Jack’s insane authority, he is giving chance for Ralph to escape and save him from Jack. Maybe he wants to hint Ralph about his true feelings about Jack.
I think the change in Ralph in the last two chapters is pretty big. I mean in the last chapter, he was in Jack's group, dancing and chanting, and even killed a person on accident. Then in this chapter, he wants to restore reason and peace between Jack's group and his own group, or whats left of it. This was up before they killed Piggy. Now that Piggy is gone along with Simon, the only two "voices of reason" on the island, what will happen to the boys as a whole? Will they fall? Will Ralph finally become and transform into a savage? Also, the shattering of the conch, does that symbolize anything? Perhaps Ralph's authority being crushed? Or maybe reason and saneness has fallen away from their lives?
"We could find some stuff," said Piggy, "and tie your hair back."
"Like a girl!"
"No. 'Course not." (pg. 172)
This is Ralph's initial reaction to the suggestion of tying his hair back. However, later on, they encounter the savages.
Freed by the paint, they had tied their hair back and were more comfortable than he was. Ralph made a resolution to tie his own back afterwards. (pg. 175)
Does Ralph still see Piggy as an annoyance, instead of an advisor? He scorns this idea, but rethinks his haste when he sees that the savages are doing it. Is it only because he actually realizes the convenience, or does he simply not see Piggy's ideas as good?
Bess: Ralph was really upset over everything that had happened. Also, the fire and the conch had become almost part of them. He was probably become habited to them, so he forgot their actual purpose.
Why does Jack want the twins to join their tribe and not welcome Piggy and Ralph?
Is there a significance to why Castle Rock is on the mountains? Does Golding choose mountains, because the mountains are like a strong fortress that stands above others (represents more authority).
Kk - I think Ralph has nothing left. His only advisor, Piggy, who tried to keep him sane has died. Even Piggy was unable to stop Ralph from using violence to try to get Piggy's glasses back. Again, I think Golding wants us to see that using violence to solve problems is also part of human nature. While most of us can control our temper, some of us fail to do so. This brings up the theme of dehumanization again. Only animals fight to solve problems. For example, hippos fight each other for mates. And if you look at it, its not just animals. We're trying to solve our problems with violence even today. Wars are still going on. An obvious example is the Iraq War.
My question is - what do you think the conch symbolizes? I know this was asked before, but this time, what do you think will happen to Ralph and the few civilized people that are left? We see that Jack and the savages gave up their place in civilization in abandoning the conch. They're become barbarians who paint their faces. They even have a hunting chant. Doesn't this image remind you of those old movies where you see cavemen with only loinclothes on, holding their spears, and running after buffalos? Before human being evolved to the state of knowing how to hunt with spears, and knowing how to dress, what were they? Animals. We were all apes descended from apes. Within less than half a year (or maybe more, the author doesn't reveal this yet), these kids have traveled from the 1940s to prehistoric times when everyone were just monkeys. Dehumanization.
Sandra: I think at that time, the boys only wanted to join the tribe for the meat, and the excitement during hunting. I don’t think they were thinking what would happen to them afterwards. They might have thought of Jack’s personality, but didn’t care about. Now that they’ve been in the tribe for some time, the boys have turned to savageness, and like I said before don’t really care anymore. Maybe they do care, but the savageness is controlling them.
Dawn: Ralph probably thinks that Piggy is an annoyance, because Ralph ignored Piggy's remarks. When Piggy said, "Like a girl!", it was childish and immature. Ralph is perhaps grown-up now. Not only was it immature, but also stereotyping. Ralph doesn't really seek power/totalitarianism, which means everyone is equal and harmonious.
Chapter 11 question
“Grab them!” No one moved. Jack shouted angrily. “I said ‘grab them’!” The painted group moved round Samneric nervously and unhandily. Once more the silvery laughter scattered.” (178) Why don’t the savages listen to Jack? Do they still think that Ralph is the official leader? Or does this symbolize that savages cannot follow orders correctly?
kimi,
I think that Piggy's death symbolizes the last straw of humanity in Jack's tribe. Look how gruesome Piggy's death is:
"His head opened, and stuff came out..."
and, at the end, Jack doesn't even show remorse about killing him, as he says, "See? see? That's what you'll get! I meant that! There isn't a tribe for you anymore..."
The death of Piggy marks a threshold. First, it marks the beginning of the end for Ralph--he has no one to turn to. Samneric had been captured. Second, it symbolizes the loss of reason. Piggy was the sensible one, and with savageness, that logic was gone.
==================================
My question: I know that this question is entirely irrelevant from Chapter 11, but I must ask: If there was a female presence at this time (i.e. girl classmates), would that have changed anything?
Jerry Lee: After losing Piggy and the conch Ralph had lost the most important things to him on the island. Not only that but Samneric had also been forced to leave his side so now he has nobody else on his side. With that in mind his best choice is to run away from Jack because his unexplained hatred towards him.
“Viciously, with full intention, he hurled his spear at Ralph. The point tore the skin and flesh over Ralph's ribs, then sheared off and fell in the water. Ralph stumbled, feeling not pain but panic, and the tribe, screaming now like the chief, began to advance.” We can tell that Jack has nothing but contempt for Ralph in this part because he threw the spear to kill and take a life. If I threw a spear at someone like that then that person must be someone I hate to be throwing a sharp object at him with such vigor. Also since Ralph has no one on his side then Jack knows that he is finally completely vulnerable and he can unleash an all out attack on him. So currently Ralph’s best choice is to run as far as he can.
Stanley~
well it seems like Ralph lost all his power with losing piggy, simon and the conch. Also with the twins being tortured to join Jacks tribe. He doesnt realyl have any supporters left. And the rest of the people are on jacks side. So i guess he doesnt have any power left.
When Ralph went to find Jack, Roger was there telling him to go away. Later he threw stones at them "aiming to miss." I found this part kind of weird because you can't say that it's superego that's supressing Roger to throw the rock at them. Later in the chapter, Roger rolled a huge rock, not aiming to miss, and thus killing Piggy. Why didn't Roger throw the rocks at them. Does Roger only have a grudge against Piggy, or something else? What's Jack's intention in killing Piggy?
Jack's intention of killing Piggy was to remove the firmest voice of law from the island. It was like removing a rival from the boys because Piggy has always challenged Jack's every decision. Jack has always used Piggy to take out his anger, like whenever Ralph angers him, he shouts at Piggy, and even went as far as punching him. Roger doesnt have a grudge against Piggy. Roger was just doing what his tribe chief would have done. Roger acted on behalf of the saveges and kille Piggy.
Ralph has lost everything he has. Simon, Piggy, the conch, his leader position, and even the beach where he usually sleeps. What would Jack and Ralph do next? Would Ralph challenge Jack's leadership, or hide? Would Jack order his savages to hunt down Ralph, or attempt to be rescued?
"Grab Them!"
No one moved. Jack Shouted Angril. "I said Grab Them!"
The painted group moved round Samneric nervously and unhandily."
Question
It seems like they are kind of resisting and too scared to grab them. If so, how come they dont say no to Jack? Why are they so scared of just one person?
Question
"The rock struck Piggy a glancing blow from chin to knee; the conch exploded into a thousand white fragments and ceased to exist."
Why do you think Golding writes out the story so that Piggy and the conch are eliminated in one blow? What is the significance of Piggy's death? What is the significance of the destroying of the conch? Are they related? And why does Piggy's corpse go to the sea? It seems like everything they don't need goes to the sea; why do you think Golding uses the sea for this purpose?
John: At first when Roger threw the stones "aiming to miss", I thought it was just to warn them that he would actually hurl rocks at them if they didn't leave right away. When he struck Piggy though, it was because they had been ordered to go away for a while already, and so he hit him. Also, it's somewhat like - Jack fully hates Piggy, and no one will really miss him but Ralph. And Ralph is still the supposed chief of reason, and Jack is one by one killing those who count (biguns) supporting him - Simon, and now Piggy. Samneric are thereafter forced to join the tribe. It seems as if Jack is ensuring that Ralph has no backup before hunting him down. After Piggy is killed, then is when they go after Ralph, who flees.
Diane: I think they - including Ralph - have all gone a little mad. Ralph has turned somewhat savage too, and therefore does not talk as reasonably as he used to. He's been affected/influenced by the savagery of Jack and the tribe, and they all begin to shout like kids. :D
I’m going to him with this conch in my hands. I’m going to hold it out. Look, I’m goin’ to say, you’re stronger than I am and you haven’t got asthma. You can see, I’m goin’ to say, and with both eyes. But I don’t ask you to be a sport, I’ll say, not because you’re strong, but because what’s right’s right. Give me my glasses, I’m going to say—you got to!" (171)
"Ralph! Don't leave me!" (176)
If Piggy is so scared of Jack and his hunters, what gives Piggy the courage to go and meet Jack's tribe? Is it because he wanted to get his glasses back? Is it to get the fire back? Or is it because of the conch that makes him confident?
The rock struck Piggy a glancing blow from chin to knee; the conch exploded into a thousand white fragments and ceased to exist. Piggy, saying nothing, with no time for even a grunt, traveled through the air sideways from the rock, turning over as he went... (Page 181)
What happens during this part? The savages launch the boulder from the top of the fort, and it kills Piggy and destroys the conch. Ralph is left alone, the only civilized boy left on the island. The conch destroyed, Piggy and Simon dead, and Samneric were traitors. I think before in chapter eight, nine, and ten, the democracy and civilized part of the boys was only fading away. Now it was completely gone. The symbol of civility, the conch, was shattered into pieces. Even when Ralph and Jack were fighting, the conch had a faint power upon the savages. But now that is gone too. Ralph is left with no allies, no conch, and an island full of savage enemies. “Piggy held up the conch and the booing sagged a little…” (Page 179) The civilized part of the island is no more. This not only symbolizes complete anarchy, but it also foreshadows the doom of Ralph. Unless a miracle happens, Ralph will succumb to his enemies.
My Question:
“Roger advanced upon them as one wielding a nameless authority.” (182)
What is this talking about? It gives Roger a mysterious aura? What nameless authority does he possess?
Jasper; Piggy represents intellectual reason, the conch represents civilisation/unity/power. When both are gone, what is left of the island? What hope does Ralph have?
liang: i think the conch somehow symbolizes unity and calmness among the children (at least on ralph's side). once the conch shattered and broke, what they have left of their group will be dispersed and scattered all over, mostly to jack's lot.
my question:
what has influenced jack into savagery? why isnt he stopping? doesnt any other children from jack's lot care if they killed another person? why aren't they stopping either?
Reply to Frank: I think Ralph gets mad because he thinks forgetting something about the smoke or conch is like forgetting his responsibilities as a leader. Piggy agrees with Ralph when Ralph said he did not forget because Piggy knows that Ralph is the chief. “You’re chief. You remember everything.” “I hadn’t forgotten.” “ ’Course not.” The twins were examining Ralph curiously, as though they were seeing him for the first time.” (173) this shows that Piggy tends to think that everything Ralph does is right, even though it may not be so. He thinks this way because he knows that Ralph is the leader, and as a leader, everything Ralph did was right.
“Roger edged past the chief, only just avoiding pushing him with his shoulder. The yelling seized, and Samneric lay looking up in quiet terror. Roger advanced upon them as one wielding a nameless authority.” pg 182
What does “nameless authority” mean; what’s going to happen to Samneric? What does this quote mean?
Diane:
Ralph fights instead of being nice because he was already angered by the fact the Jack had STOLE the glasses. He thought that Jack could have just asked for fire, but instead Jack had chosen to attack them in the night and steal the glasses. They probably wouldn't have been able to negotiate because of Ralph's anger and Jack's savageness. Ralph thought that the two groups were still tied by the goal of being saved, and because of this, thought he was still leader, when in fact he was not. He had lost his power completely.
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At the end of the chapter, Jack had captured Samneric. He said "you got to join my tribe" and they hurt Samneric. Will Samneric betray Ralph and join the tribe? If so what might happen to Ralph now.
Response
Chuni
I think that Ralph decides to fight Jack because he really has no other option. He is putting all of his past accomplishments and leadership at stake now to challenge Jack, but I think that he doesn't realize the danger that he put Piggy and Samneric in by doing this. He is too carried away by the fight because the events in the story have been slowly building up towards a fight between Jack and Ralph to decide who is the actual leader of the tribe. I think that Ralph has also been looking for an opportunity to prove that he is a better leader than Jack other than through speech, and this gives him a perfect opportunity. Everyone believes that Jack is the more adept fighter, and if Ralph can beat him, he can prove that he is better than Jack in almost every category. He probably didn't realize that Piggy and Samneric were in danger because he was completely focused on fighting Jack because he cannot afford to lose; if he did, his authority would be completely gone. He cannot let anything else distract him during his fight.
Another question,
Do you think the tribe is brainwashing the children? The children had been taught certain things and now the tribe is defying that. Is it Jack that controls them or is it fear?
My Question:
On pg. 181, it says " The rock struck Piggy a glancing blow from chin to knee; the conch exploded into a thousand white fragments and ceased to exist." What does the shattering of the conch represent? Does the death of Piggy mean that the last shred of sane reason is gone?
James,
I think Samneric won’t betray Ralph and they won’t join the tribe, but I also don’t think they will get killed. I think Ralph will try to save them or something. By the way, I don’t think they hurt Sam and Eric…yet…
http://www.dejavurl.com/trailer/Lord_of_the_Flies_1990 (Lord of the Flies 1990 Movie Trailer)
This chapter...leaves me really breathless. I just had to keep my eyes glued to the book and I couldn't stop. Though this chapter is truly attracting, I consider it one of the most sick as well. First Jack killed Simon, then Piggy, then "enslaved" Sam 'n' Eric. What worse could he do next? That wasn't the question I wanted to ask. What I'm really curious about is why Pigy had so much courage to stand up the Jack before they set out for Jack's turf and how he just dropped all courage and crouched down during the fight? Of course, he did say some pretty stuff, but he didn't walk up to Jack's face and all.
"You've got to join the tribe" was the first thing Jack has said to the twins in a while. I just wonder why he wants the two boys to be in the tribe. What's so important about their inclusion? Perhaps Jack just wnat to have more control. Yeah, maybe it's just his kust for control and power. Talk about totalitarianism...
To Weifan:
To be honest with you, I think that a girl would probably not have made not much of a big difference, but only some small differences to that. Perhaps Raloh and Jack would talk to her in a different tone, or perhaps we would get a lot of screaming and complaining in the story. That will probably take away some of the seriousness that's imprinted with the story. Boys seem to bring a stronger sense of anything...don't you think?
Respond to Robert:
Why is the significance of this? Why do both Simon and Piggy's body go out to the sea?
Golding’s purpose of letting Simon and Piggy’s dead corpses to flow out the sea is to isolate Ralph from assistance; like the twins are captured, Piggy and Simon are dead, and also Jack and his savages are a threat to Ralph. Without help and support from his two loyal supporters, Ralph is in a complex situation of whether he should join Jack’s tribe or to assert that they should keep making smoke so they could be rescued. Golding relieves Simon and Piggy because they sacrificed as advocates of civilization and so they receive a free pass to leave the island. The island is no longer a paradise, because it becoming a nightmare.
My Question:
Piggy used to be craven and he was extremely afraid of Jack and his savages. However in chapter 10, Piggy followed Ralph and the twins to confront Jack and his savages, so what is Piggy’s motivation of doing this even thought he is scared? Is it because of the conch? Or is it because his change of personality.
when Ralph went to Jack's camp. The boys didn't welcome Ralph but throwing stone at him 'aiming to miss'. When Jack came back. Ralph and Jack started to fight. This conflict shows the anger between Ralph and Jack. because of this, Piggy was killed by Roger. the conch was destroyed. Is Ralph going to take the revenge for Piggy? Is he going to kill Jack?
Diane: I think at this point Ralph is so confused by all that has happened that he is at a loss for reasoned action. He desperately clings to the last remnant of order in the society, which is the calling of the assembly, because even the fire has gone out. He wants the order back so that everything will be familiar again and so that he feels like he is in control of at least something. Also he couldn't negotiate with Jack anymore in a civilized manner because Jack and his tribe are no longer rational. They have already given in to their id and cannot be reasoned with in a way that we can consider civilized.
Sandra~I don't get how the boys in Jack's tribe want to be there, since Jack is so demanding and violent. Is it because of pressure? or because they really like it?
I think there's a little of both but more of "they just like it". I guess they seem to enjoy being in Jack's tribe since he takes them hunting, they get meat, and they don't take things too seriously.
In this chapter, Jack and his barbaric tribe steals both the fire and Piggy’s glasses. Ralph calls a meeting and decides that they should find Jack and the others to make them see what they’ve turned into and what they’ve done. Piggy takes the conch along so it would be a reminder of its power and its symbolism of a once civilized society they had. Jack, who still does not understand the importance of the fire and getting rescued, refuses to listen. In they end, Piggy dies, Sam and Eric gets tied up, and Ralph is badly wounded. Didn’t they understand that going to find Jack and his tribe was very risky and dangerous? Look what they’ve done to Simon, didn’t they know it they might get killed also?
The rock struck Piggy a glancing blow from the chin to knee; the conch exploded into a thousand white fragments and ceased to exist.
I think the shattered pieces of the conch symbolizes the end of a sophisticated society.
STANLEY:
I don't think that everything is lost. Ralph is at least still living. If Ralph was dead already, then there would be no hope anyway. However I think that somehow, Ralph will find a way out of this.
TED WU:
I think that Piggy is sick of always being bullied by Jack, and since Ralph is completely standing on his side, Piggy feels more confident. Before, Ralph would make fun of Piggy, but now, Ralph doesn't anymore.
DAISY:
I think that Jack is the only one that became a true savage, not the children. They are only sticking to Jack because they want to fulfill their desires. But Jack hunts pigs nor for fun, but its the id that comes up. Its addicting, and Jack loves hte feeling of murder. The children are slowly changing into savages, but not completely yet.
JAMES:
Jack was not controlling the children I think. Jack is the one that's being controlled. Jack, I believe is the weakest person on this island because he cannot maintain a sense a morality. I think that the thing that's controlling them is called id, something related to desires. They are letting the id take over them, or get the best of them. They can't maintain a sense of superego/ego.
JASMINE:
Jack knows that the children have no power over him, so therefore, he forces them into the tribe. If Ralph and Piggy were littluns too, then Jack would've forced them into the tribe too.
Daisy:I think they didn't say no because they realized what would become of them if they didn't do what he said, and that how violent and savage-like Jack is.
Piggy died try to get his specs back from Jack who have stolen it. Than Ralph called Jack a thief.
"you could have had the fire when ever you want. But you didn't. You came sneaking up like a thief and stole Piggy's glasses!"
"say that again"
Why is Jack so angry about being called thief?
After all Jack did steal Piggy's glasses, I think this might means that Jack might still have some ego within. He still feel bad being called a thief which might mean that he still have some sence in him and he is not yet a total savage.
“Which is better—to be a pack of painted Indians like you are, or to be sensible like Ralph is?” “Which is better—to have rules and agree, or to hunt and kill?” “Which is better, law and rescue, or hunting and breaking things up?” From here we could see that Piggy is comparing how savage they have become. He tries to explain that they are getting out of control. After what has happened to Simon, I think Ralph and Piggy’s senses come back to them. They started to rebuild a fire, and that means their hope of becoming rescued is still there; and they tried to make Jack and the others that are with him realize that what they are doing is wrong (like killing). But instead of making them realize that, they get even more violent and end up killing Piggy.
STEVEN:
The boys didn’t listen to Jack was probably because they aren’t completely savage yet. They still have a conscious, which keeps them listening to Ralph. This can also symbolize that the conch still has some power over the boys. For example when Piggy held the conch, everybody came into silence. ‘“I tell you, I got the conch!” Surprisingly there was a silence now…’(180) Ralph also holds some power over the boys; they hesitate on whether they should follow Jack or Ralph. ‘“Which is better-to be a pack of painted Indians like you are, or to be sensible like Ralph is?” A great clamor rose among the savages.’(180)
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Ralph has always been getting advice from Piggy,but Piggy is dead now and the conch is shattered. What will Ralph do? Will he join Jack's tribe due to the lack of people?
Why was there silence when Piggy siad that he had the conch? Didn't Jack sya that the conch was useless in that part of the island, then why was there still silence when Piggy shouted "I have the conch."
albert:Once Piggys has died, do you think all hope of rescue has lost? Because now that there is only Ralph to keep the fire going, which is not enough. What will become of the kids now?
I think now that Piggy died, there is no one to help Ralph stay hopeful, so the hope of rescue is basically lost.
my question:
Now that Piggy and Simon are both dead, is Ralph going to surrender to Jack? Is he going to continue to rule his group? What is he going to do?
To Helen:
I think when Golding describes the conch as “white magic shell” and “talisman, the fragile, shining beauty”, he meant something to it. To me, I think that he always describes the conch with such grace because he personally also respects the conch (power and authority) very much too. He describes the conch with these adjectives because he wants to emphasize the importance of the conch itself. In the island, the conch symbolizes power, authority, and civilization. With these three concepts, the conch is viewed as a “rule”. That was why Ralph kept on using the conch as his argument: he believes that all the kid need is a set of policy to follow by.
Without the conch, as the conch blew up in chapter 11, the author meant that there was already no point of turning back. The rules and laws are already broken, basically meaning that there are no more rules. Without the conch, the boys will turn more and more savage, without bothering about their own civilized self.
Question:
In chapter 11, both Piggy and the conch were destroyed. What do you think is the importance of this? Also, what do you think this symbolizes?
“Suddenly Jack bounded out from the tribe and began screaming wildly. “ See? See? That’s what you’ll get! I meant that! There isn’t a tribe for you any more! The conch is gone – “He ran forward, stooping. “ I’m chief!” (p.181)
From this chapter, Ralph had completely lost his power as a leader, also losing Piggy, who has been the closest company of his. Now that his followers were captured by Jack’s tribe, and couldn’t get away, Ralph turned and ran away. Ralph now does not have the conch to keep his position, and that Jack now had complete win over him as a chief. To them, once the conch was destroyed or disappear, then the power can be on either side, depends on the number of followers each leader has. Jack won, and had become a dictator, especially when he said, “See? They do what I want.” This phrase presented his behavior as a dictator, and how cruel he may be because they’ll do anything he tells him to.
Posting a question:
What can Ralph do now? Without Piggy, can he still lead the rest of the littluns? What do you think will become of him?
Reply to Demi's question:
Now that Piggy and Simon are both dead, is Ralph going to surrender to Jack? Is he going to continue to rule his group? What is he going to do?
I believe Ralph will still continue to rule his group, he will never join Jack, because he doesn't want himself to become a savage. He wants to go home, to be rescue, so he would find a way to keep the fire going. Ralph lose Simon, but in this chapter, the author says he rememebers what Simon use to say to him, "Don't be silly ... let's go" Though Ralph may lose important people as Piggy, but I believe he will live on, and press on the hope of being rescue, and the rememberance of what people have said to him. That will be his reminder to his purpose on this island.
HELEN: I think the conch symbolizes civilization, order, peace, unity, and democracy. As the novel progresses, the conch becomes even more valuable in the eyes of Piggy and Ralph, because civilization, order, peace, unity, and democracy are exactly what the boys are lacking; they only have a shred of the fragile things left.
"The rock struck Piggy a glancing blow from chin to knee; the conch exploded into a thousand white fragments and ceased to exist."
Roger had loosened a giant boulder and it hurdled into Piggy along with the conch which shattered. Does this have any significance? The conch shattering and Piggy getting killed with one blow of a giant boulder.
(Reuby, again!) A: Of course the shattering of the conch has significance! Otherwise, what’s the point in asking this question right? (XP)
Ok that’s not my final answer…Ahem…I feel that the shattering of the conch is a metaphor for the final and lasting end of all civilization and reason on the island. Conch, as previously discussed, symbolizes diplomatic law and order among the boys, and we can see its gradual decline of power and respect as the boys turned savage.
However, the some of the awe toward the conch from the start of the story still remains, just like their fear of the beast, and even though they might ruthlessly attack the conch’s holder and ignore the rules, no one, not even Jack, had the nerve to directly harm the conch, showing that a shred of their former life still remains. When Piggy hoists the conch in front of the savages, they unconsciously follow the rules from before and fall silent, “The booing rose and died again as Piggy lifted the white, magic shell.”
Even with the brief revival of the conch’s power, the savages had strayed too far from the path of civilization to be turned back by a fat kid with a fat shell (lol), and Roger, who obviously is a sadist and naturally morbid, finally breaks free from the chains of his superego and lets his id run amok, bringing about the death of Piggy and the shell with one big boulder. As the conch “ceased to exist”, it symbolizes the true of reason among the boys, and that all reminders of their former life and society is now gone, and they truly are savage.
-Howler
John: I think it was sorta because of his superego, or maybe conditioning. Notice on page 62, Golding wrote, "Roger's arm was conditioned by a civilization..." as he threw rocks [threw to miss] in Henry's direction. Then, when he kills Piggy with the large rock, the complete abandonment of all they knew of civilization was signified. Roger was caught up in the atmosphere of the moment, similar to the way the boys were caught up in the moment when they killed Simon. To further signify the complete savagery of the boys, the conch, a symbol of rules and regulations, was destroyed along with Piggy, the voice of reason on the island.
"The twins were examining Ralph curiously, as thought they were seeing him for the first time." (pg 173)
What do you think the twins were thinking at this moment? Did they still think Ralph was a good leader? Were they beginning to think Jack was a more suitable leader for them?
Q: Why does Ralph keep losing his train of thoughts when he confronts the savages? If he truly has the right to be chief, he should be able to speak for himself with confidence, instead of relying on Piggy to keep his ideas in track. Also, when he faces the truth of his loss of power, he becomes irrational, forgetting the rescue he has used to boost his leadership and tries to do everything differently from Jack, and loses the respect of Samneric, “The twins were examining Ralph curiously, as though they were seeing him for the first time.” What does this show about Ralph?
whoot! 1 hr earlier than all prv stuff!! xD
“‘I’m going to him with this conch in my hands. I’m going to hold it out. Look, I’m goin’ to say, you’re stronger than I am and you haven’t got asthma. You can see, I’m goin’ to say, and with both eyes. But I don’t ask for my glasses back, not as a favor. I don’t ask you to be a sport, I’ll say, not because you’re strong, but because what’s right’s right. Give me my glasses, I’m going to say—you got to!’
Piggy ended, flushed and trembling. He pushed the conch quickly into Ralph’s hands as though in a hurry to be rid of it and wiped the tears from his eyes. The green light was gentle about them and the conch lay at Ralph’s feet, fragile and white. A single drop of water that had escaped Piggy’s fingers now flashed on the delicate curve like a star.”
Piggy displays courage here. I find this speech particularly moving. Even in this dangerous, despicable situation where everyone gives up on Ralph’s ideas of a civilized group of boys and joins Jack’s savage tribe led by Jack’s wild dictatorship, Piggy managed to stand up and refuse to give in. What does this show about Piggy? Has your view of him changed? How so? Also, why do you think Golding wrote the last line? Does the drop of water that “escaped” from Piggy’s fingers symbolize something? Why did it flash like a “star”?
Hannah:
What can Ralph do now? Without Piggy, can he still lead the rest of the littluns? What do you think will become of him?
Ralph can't do anything anymore. He has lost all of his support and is alone except for the little ones still following him. When he was attacked, he lost the conch, the symbol for authority. Without authority, I doubt Ralph can still lead the rest of the little ones. I think Ralph will get killed by Jack and his followers, unless he gets Piggy's glasses to light another fire. It will he his last hope of getting rescued.
What does Piggy's death symbolize?
Q: Ralph's tribe is collapsing. Is this the ending of his tribe? Ralph lost their most trusted member, Piggy, Sam and Eric, along with injuries. What might happen?
Sean: It symbolizes their tree of knowledge is dead, the person who actually is keeping the rest from becoming savage is gone. It kind of tells that the tribe might die.
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