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"Fancy thinking the Beast was something you could hunt and kill" (143)!
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94 comments:
Once Jack officially leaves, many also follow him, do you think they follow Jack because he is a good leader or through the need of hunt? Or maybe do they do this because they are afraid of him?
"Simon's head was titled slightly up. His eyes could not break way and the Lord of the Flies hung in space before him."
What does the Lord of the Flies symbolize? Why did Golding use it as the title?
Robert: I think Golding uses Lord of the Flies because the name sympolizes something great yet something small. A fly is somewhat of a nuisance to humans, while a Lord is something that someone looks up to. I think it sumbolizes that small things can become great things.
Albert: I think they follow Jack for two main reasons: the ability to hunt and have fun. Ralph may have been a better and more civilized chief than Jack, Jack offers meat and fun. Ralph’s main concern is to keep a fire lit so that it may be used as a distress signal. Jack doesn’t care about getting off the island; he cares about having fun and hunting on the island. He provides the biguns with adventures and fun stuff to do such as the hunting trip they had when they killed the pig. Unlike Jack, Ralph does not have any basic knowledge of hunting, so the only things they consumed were fruits and berries compared to Jack’s pig. Even though Ralph is a much better chief, the other kids do not realize that. They only want to have fun, no matter if their chief is nice or better. Kids are kids. They love to play when they get the chance. To a kid, hunting and building forts are more interesting than tending a fire and scavenging for fruit and berries. I think the kids chose their leaders depending on their personality. If they wanted fun and adventure, they followed Jack. If they were scared of Jack or understood Ralph’s plan, they followed Ralph. I don’t think the biguns are afraid of Jack to go join him, if they were indeed afraid of him, why would they join Jack?
Why is Simon having this illusion about the Lord of the Flies? Is it because he knows that the beast is actually the savagness of themselves?
“There isn't anyone to help you. Only me. And I'm the Beast . . . Fancy thinking the Beast was something you could hunt and kill! . . . You knew, didn't you? I'm part of you? Close, close, close! I'm the reason why it's no go? Why things are the way they are?”
Who is the actual beast on this island?
"How can we make a fire?" Jack squatted back and frowned at the pig. "We'll raid them and take fire."
If jack needed fire then why didn't he just take piggy's spectacles instead of stealing the fire? After all stealing it involves more work and producing the fire with the spectacles isn't that difficult of a task.
What does the Lord of the Flies symbolize?
Jack was the one that hunted it in such a brutal and painful fashion(symbolizing savagery, cruelty), and he put it on a stick as an offering to the beast (fear), then they fled right after (panic). I think the pig's head - the "Lord of the Flies" - symbolizes the whole dehumanization process and what happens after society breaks up. I think what Golding was trying to express was how people enter a state of primitive savagery, fear, and panic after order is broken.
Also, the pig head "speaks" to Simon (insanity).
Did Simon really go crazy? "In Simon's right temple, a pulse began to beat on the brain. (138)" What does that quote mean? Did he go mad, like in the movies where their veins pop out of their foreheads?
(the next question is slightly weird, but I think it needs to be brought up) Why does Golding write the sow-killing scene in such a way? He describes it like rape. But they're only little boys! Is he trying to show how truly cruel they are? Or how they have entered such a wicked, corrupt state too early?
RESPONSE:
Flies swarmed around the head, and Simon as well:
"Simon's eyes were half-closed as though he were imitating the obscene thing on the stick." ... "'You knew, didn't you? I'm part of you? Close, close, close! I'm the reason why it's no go? Why things are what they are?'"
I think the voice comes from inside Simon. As he had stated earlier, the beast is a part of all of them, and so he confronts the beast within himself. The ugly beast externalized upon the stake, that pig's head buzzing with flies, suddenly mirrors Simon, eyes half closed and himself buzzing with flies as well. The outside and inside are at this moment one and the same. The beast then begins to threaten him saying, "'You're not wanted....on this island!... So don't try to take it on...or else....we shall do you. See? Jack and Roger and Maurice and Robert and Bill and Piggy and Ralph.'" So,if Simon tries to explain to all of the children that there is really no beast but that which is in themselves, he is warned that he shall be thus killed not only by Jack but by Ralph and Piggy too, for the beast, the voice says, is in all of them. With these words spoken from within, Simon falls unconsciousness after being swallowed by "a vast mouth with blackness within."
albert: some wanted to fulfill their desires, which included the hunting/killing of the pigs, so they followed Jack. The biguns follwed Jack mainly because of loyalty.
albert: i think they followed jack because they didnt think the fire would help them get rescued and they wanted to have fun.
does the conch and the fire symbolize something greater in the bigger picture? (since it is mentioned repetitively.) what is the Lord of the Flies? is jack's lot going to break down?
reuben: Jack didn't want to stoop that low as to borrow Piggy's specs. He doesn't respect Piggy, and if he does borrow it that would mean he'd have to return it. And that seems way to nice and peaceful for Jack. Raiding the fire - RAIDING. Like uncivilized people. And it's the power to take as he wishes. He's chief now, and I think he wanted to assert that. That he can just TAKE the fire, and there's nothing Ralph can do about it.
diane: Yes it was like rape, the way the boys killed the sow. I think the method in which she is slain is almost violently sexual, as Roger impales her "'Right up her ass!'" The reason the author describes it like rape is because he wants the reader to know that Jack and his group of biguns ARE growing up, but in a a darker way.
In chapter 8, Jack called an assembly announcing that they shouldn’t follow Ralph any longer since: ”He’s not a hunter. He’d never have got us meat. He isn’t a perfect and we don’t know anything about him. He just gives orders and expects people to obey for nothing…” Soon Jack left and some of the others decided to join him, leaving Ralph in depression. Jack’s party began to hunt again and slaughtered a sow. They arrive at the beach and annouced that they killed a pig and anyone who wants is allowed to join them. Many of the littleuns are craving for fresh meat. It seems like Jack has finally won. Do you think the rest of them would go over to Jack’s side? In the end would Ralph apologize to Jack and let Jack become chief?
Kristen:
The actual beast is the savagery inside the kids. The kids are greatly convinced that the parachutist is the beast. After Jack, Ralph, and Roger saw the “beast” on the top of the mountain, they tell the whole group of kids that there is a beast on the island. This is a very crucial point to the future of the group, because this news of the beast makes people act very extreme.
“You knew, didn’t you? I’m part of you? Close, close, close! I’m the reason why it’s no go? Why things are what they are?”
The laughter shivered again. –page 143
The talking beast only exists in Simon’s head. I think that Simon is very different from Ralph, Jack, and everyone else on the island. He is kindhearted and it seems that he has a connection with nature. Simon seems to know that the beast doesn’t exist in the actual world but actually in people’s hearts before he even went to the Lord of the Flies.
The Lord of the Flies seems like a very important part of the story. When Simon goes to it it talks to him. The impact on Simon is very great; he faints at the end of the chapter. Why did Golding put it in the story? What does the Lord of the Flies symbolize in the story?
richard: my name is spelled kristin, not kristen :)
Albert~Once Jack officially leaves, many also follow him, do you think they follow Jack because he is a good leader or through the need of hunt? Or maybe do they do this because they are afraid of him?
No, I don't think they are afraid of him but yes, I think Jack has great ability at hunting. And they probably just like him as a leader since he gives them meat.
After Jack leaves, Ralph is left with no hunter, which means no meat. What are they going to eat now? BAck to fruits and fish and crab? I dont think Ralph's group would be too happy with that idea. How are they going to survive now? And also, what does the lord of the flies symbolize? why does it only appear to simon and no one else? and could it be that he is getting somewhat crazy because of the desire to go home and maybe lack of nutrition?
lol sorry about that
p.126: “Yes. The beast is a hunter. Only- shut up! The next thing is that we couldn’t kill it. And next is that Ralph said my hunters are no good.”
This quote said by Jack shows how he is trying to create a conflict between Ralph and the rest of the members. He is creating conflict between them because he wants to overthrow Ralph and become the leader. But Ralph successfully defend himself by telling the others Jack’s crowdedness and led Jack embarrassed. When Jack rejected Ralph’s conch shell shows the authority of the conch is completely meaningless for Jack now. Although Jack does not care about the conch shell anymore, do you think the rest of the people will slowly decrease the authority of the conch?
In this chapter Piggy acts as an important role, giving hope for the hopeless boys’.
Even now, Ralph is willing to listen to Piggy and share his feelings to Piggy. P.139: “Can’t they see? Can’t they understand? Without the smoke signal we’ll all die here? Look at that!” This quote said by Ralph shows how he is stressed and shares his questions to Piggy. P.139: “I dunno, Ralph. We just got to go on, that’s all. That’s what grownups would do.” When Piggy said this to Ralph, it symbolizes how Piggy is mature and understands the adult world, which also symbolizes his intelligence.
Diane,
Why does Golding write the sow-killing scene in such a way? He describes it like rape. But they're only little boys! Is he trying to show how truly cruel they are? Or how they have entered such a wicked, corrupt state too early?
I think Golding describes the scene in such a way that disgusts the reader to show how evil Jack has become. He is the main antagonist of the novel, and in this chapter, Jack's transformation to a savage is complete. On page 134, it says the sow they killed was "the largest sow of the lot." It was also defenseless while feeding its piglets. He chose to kill her, consequently killing her piglets, for they had lost their mother, food source, and protection. This shows how cruel Jack has become. Jack's followers are no better. Not only was Roger proud of sticking his spear "right up her ass," they also mimicked what happened and had a great time. Jack and his band of followers have no doubt become savages.
On page 128, Simon said that they should climb the mountain, and he said "What else is there to do?" The others responded with silence. Why did Simon say that? Is he trying to test the group's bravery? Or does he want everyone to die?
Kristin Kiang- I think the real beast in this story is the evilness of humans. When Simon says "What I mean is... maybe it's only us." in chapter 5, it's kind of hinting the readers that maybe the beast is just us, meaning humans.
To Albert:
I think after Jack leaves, a lot of the others followed him because of basically two reasons: meat and fun. Unlike Ralph, Jack can provide them with meat and a better life on the island. The people, especially the littluns, couldn’t live without the meat, as stated in Ralph’s assembly in the end of the chapter. As for the buguns, I think that they do think that Jack is a better leader. They agree to everything Jack says, and is always supporting him, for example when they are hunting the pigs.
I think in the end, Ralph and Jack will eventually reunite because of the difficulties in life they would encounter on the island. One, for example, is the fire. Without the fire, there would be no chance of being rescued. Keeping a fire alive isn’t very easy, and neither could both the little assemblies keep a fire up by themselves, they need each other. Also, Jack and Ralph both need the fire, but for slightly different reasons: getting rescued for Ralph, and roasting pigs, for Jack.
Question:
What do you think will happen to Ralph and Jack eventually? Would they reunite because of the difficulties in life they would encounter? Or would they stay the same because they like what they are now.
Kristin:
I think the beast is actually the imagination and knowledge of the children themselves. Their opinions and thoughts are the ones bringing fear into their hearts. The way they think and see things is what scares them.
“The hair on their foreheads fluttered and flames blew out sideways from the fire. Fifteen yards away from them came the plopping noise of fabric open. Neither of the boys screamed but the grip of their arms tightened and their mouths grew peaked… “It was furry. There was something moving behind its head-wings. The beast moved too---… “There were eyes---Teeth claws---.”
The way Sam and Eric saw the corpse with parachute scared them. Their eyes and mind had tricked them into seeing a furry monster with claws and teeth when in reality it was just a dead man with a parachute. If their imagination and eyes had not seen the corpse in this perspective then they probably could have further investigated and discovered that it was just a dead body.
Not only were Sam and Eric tricked into seeing a monster but all the other boys as well. Jack and Ralph were also fooled by the man because of his decaying body which demented his face features. Their mind started to play tricks and make them think that the body’s demented face features were that of a real hideous monster.
If everyone had taken the time to actually observe the body more carefully then they might have found out what was wrong. This is all because of their imagination and knowledge as children because they did not think more critically about how to observe the monster
albert:
I think the other kids follow Jack not because he is an actual good leader. I think they follow him because he is fun, and he offers better food, and to the kids, thats all that matters.
Even though Ralph might be more responsible and civilized, the kids don't think that really matters, so they choose the fun and exciting leader.
I don't think they joined Jack because they were afraid of him, because if they were, why would they join him? If I were scared of someone, I definitely will not join the person, and instead, I would stay with the person I felt safe around.
my question:
What exactly is the "Lord of the Flies"? Does it really talk? What does it symbolize?
Albert:
I think that people follow Jack because they think that Jack’s side is more fun. They think that hunting is better than collecting wood. The boys would rather play fun and barbaric games. If Ralph doesn’t keep reiterating the hope of getting rescued, then the boys would get tired from the work and forget about getting rescued. I think that this also shows that Ralph is gradually losing his power and they realized that Jack holds the most power. Jack knows how to grasp the desires of the boys, he keeps the boys under his control by playing savage games, hunting, and he has the meat. The boys need meat, and Ralph’s not the hunter-type of person, so they get lured to Jack.
Nearly the end of the chapter Simon was in the jungle glade where he previously sat marveling at the beauty of nature. He saw a pig head was talking to him, which was called “Lord of the Flies.” What does Lord of the flies symbolize? Is the pig head really the Lord of the flies?
"You are a silly little boy," said lord of the flies,"just an ignorant, silly little boy."p. 143
Q: Who is Lord of the Flies? How did it speak?could there actually is someone on this island?
Albert: I think people follow Jack is because that with Jack they can be really safe form the beast. He is the best hunter in the group. Also with jack they are no rules but freedom in the island. They can eat meat every day, instead of fruits.
Why is it the Lord of the Flies is able to talk to Simon and only Simon? Why can't the other boys hear what the Lord of Flies says. Does it speaking to him foreshadow anything? Does it symbolize anything? What does it mean that everything is "bad business?"
"Simon's head wobbled....He knew that one of his times was coming on." Is Simon going crazy? How is the Lord of the Flies communicating with him? What is it? Is it a voice in his head? Or is the pig's head somehow "getting into his mind"?
It is the Lord of the Flies because it is swarmed with the flies, making it seem like it was ruling them all. I think this foreshadows Piggy's death, due to his name. The person on the front page of the new book has Piggy and a fly on his back.
My question: Why dod Golding use a pig's head and not another animal's?
demi and ted. l: I think the Lord of the Flies symbolizes the inner cruelty or darker side that each person has within himself/herself. From the way he/it talks, we can see that the LOTF is not a nice or kind entity, instead it talks to Simon in a jeering and mocking sort of way. It's like a voice that goads someone to do something crazy or bad.
albert: I think they follow him because of the need to hunt and because they feel like it is more important. They may be afraid of him, but they really follow him because they either see him as someone strong that they can rally around or someone who will lead them to something that will gratify their immediate needs (meat).
Why is Simon having this illusion about the Lord of the Flies? Is it because he knows that the beast is actually the savageness of himself?
To Frank Sung:
Simon is the first person to realize that the Lord of the Flies is the beast they are hunting for. Lord of the flies remains inside their bodies, which they fear because it is like a disease plaguing over their bodies and minds. The beast is imaginary, because what Simon sees is during his illusions. I think Simon notices that Lord of the flies is nothing to be afraid of, because if he remains civilized, Lord of the flies will not manifest him. “What are you doing out here all alone? Aren’t you afraid of me?” Simon shook. Also, the beast said, “I’m part of you” which means the lord of the flies is a kind of disease of evilness that exists in every person.
My question:
In page 141-142, Ralph seems to be losing his brains and minds. He can’t remember what he is going to say and blanks out a lot. Is Golding trying to tell us that Ralph is losing the connection between civilization and the savagery starts to build up inside him? Also, I’ve also thought that Simon is just an athletic guy who follows Ralph’s lead and I never knew what his role in the book. However, why is Simon a significant role starting from this chapter?
Quote (Page 127)
“Hands up,” Jack said strongly, “whoever wants Ralph no to be chief?”
The silence continued, breathless and heavy and full of shame. Slowly the red drained from Jack’s cheeks, then came back with a painful rush. He licked his lips and turned his head at an angle, so that his gaze avoided the embarrassment of linking with another’s eye.
“How many think-”
His voice trailed off. The hands that held the conch shook. He cleared his throat, and spoke loudly. “All right then.”
He laid the conch with great care in the grass at his feet. The humiliating tears were running down from the corner of each eye. “I’m not going to play any longer. Not with you.”…
“I’m not going to be Ralph’s lot-“
The action by Jack that everyone has been waiting for has finally come. Jack decides to revolt against Ralph’s power. Why? Jack was insulted when Ralph accused his hunters to be merely boys armed with sticks. Jack became angry because he thought Ralph couldn’t do anything. I think the anger inside him that had been building up has finally exploded and he is angry.
The split that resulted from this, in my view, is a turning point in the story. Even after encountering the beast, the boys were still as one group. But now Jack has formed another group on the other side of the island along with all the big boys except Ralph, Piggy, and Samneric. I think this part symbolizes for when the animosity between Jack and Ralph will finally flare.
Here’s my Question:
Do you think that Jack will return to Ralph? If so, why? What do you think will happen? Make a prediction.
eek i'm kristen. kk's kristin ><''' try to pay attention otherwise it'll be like whaaaa~? lol
Ralph’s leadership is officially challenged by Jack, and Jack leaves Ralph and the other kids alone. Afterwards, however, most of the boys went to join Jack. Why? What is the thing that attracts them to Jack? What does Jack offer, that Ralph doesn’t have?
Why did Piggy say that he thought Jack went for the conch? The conch is meanless for Jack in the situation or is it?And why did Raph go for the fire? was it because that they know that they can live on the island already and is trying to grab the resourses?
Albert: I think the people follow him because of the meat he has brought them. Human nature craves meat, and Jack was the meat source. Although some must have had followed him because he was their original leader: the choir head that could sing C Sharp
Richard: Lord of the Flies seemed like that it symbolizes the threat of nature. it was talking to Simon, "you are a silly little boy..."p.143 then Simon fainted. this symbolizes that human can't beat nature if they are being too outrageously arrogant. it sort of foreshadows that something bad might happen to the boy.
Response
Is there a connection between the madness that Jack suffers from and the hallucinations that Simon receives? What is Simon’s hallucination, when is the Lord of the Flies saying?
So Simon’s obviously around the bend, but perhaps there is some order to the wackiness. It seems like the main result of his madness is hallucinations, where he imagines a pig whose head is stuck on a stick to be the Lord of the Flies who threatens him. Meanwhile, Jack’s battiness results in primitivism, where he becomes more savage, and hides behind a mask that frees his self-consciousness, as seen in “He was safe from shame and self-consciousness behind the mask of his paint and could look at each of them in turn.” Maybe they aren’t affected by the same insanity, but when we examine Simon’s hallucination in detail, I think we find some pretty interesting things.
First of all, although it is slightly unclear, I think that the pig head on the stick is what Simon believes to be the Lord of the Flies. Why does Golding change the way he refers to the pig head (from sow’s head to Lord of the Flies)? Perhaps it is to represent possession; like a spiritual possession of the sow’s head by the Lord of the Flies. That, in turn, implies that the Lord of the Flies is supernatural. But as we know, the Lord of the Flies is actually only in Simon’s mind. Perhaps his mind tried to assign the voice in his head a body, because he had been molded by society- voices heard in heads are not good. Therefore, he tries to avoid the social taboo, and turns to the next best thing- assigning that voice a body. Although it is equally crazy to think that a dead sow can talk, most likely, Simon’s mind subconsciously decides that it’s better than nothing. I think when the referral of the sow’s head changes and becomes the Lord of the Flies, it shows that Simon is going deeper into his mind, and consequently, sinking deeper into madness. At first, when Simon was only beginning to stare at the head, he imagined the head talking, but afterwards, Golding starts using quotation marks and dialogue to show when the Lord of the Flies speaks. I think this is more evidence that Simon sank lower into his mind the longer he sat there.
Secondly, I’m rather curious about how the Lord of the Flies says, “-Or else we shall do you. See? Jack and Roger and Maurice and Robert and Bill and Piggy and Ralph. Do you. See?” What is he threatening Simon about? Is he holding Simon’s friends’ lives as hostage? How can the Lord of the Flies affect them at all? After asking these questions, the most obvious conclusion is that the Lord of the Flies is the madness, or Beast (as he admits himself). He can fatally affect them by taking over their minds, like he did with Simon, and how he did, but less obviously, with Jack. If he takes over their minds, maybe he can influence them to hallucinate, like he made Simon hallucinate. If he can take over their minds, make them see things that aren’t really there, or cover up things that are really there with different outer appearances, then doesn’t that mean that he can make them kill each other, or themselves? So the Lord of the Flies has a considerable hold over their lives, and Simon is the only one who knows that. He is also the only one who knows what the Beast is, and how dangerous it is, but he can’t tell anyone.
As a conclusion, I predict that the boys are screwed, and will be killed one by one, either by the madness or by themselves.
Albert:
I think the main reason many children follow him is because he is more fun and because the biguns know him better. They also probably follow him because he can bring meat to the table (bacon bringer?? :D). Another reason is that they may not exactly like Ralph's ways. Jack promises fun and feasting. He also has the ability of the hunt. The biguns also respect him very much, especially other choir boys. In many ways, Ralph and Jack are foils of each other. Jack promises those things while Ralph's main focus is to get off the island which most of the kids don't realize is the whole point. They also don't seem to realize how knowledge can help them in life on the island.
Sean: Simon said that, simply because it was the only way to find out what the “beast” on the mountain was. The other kids just plan avoid the “beast”, which turns out to be a dead soldier killed in the war, and live in fear of it always. Obviously avoiding what you fear is not a good way to solve problems. Simon is just stating what should be done, and he shows bravery to facing the feared and the unknown. He is trying to help, not go on a suicidal mission.
In this chapter, Jack breaks off from the group and forms his own tribe. Later the chapter talks about Simon and he was listening to the pig’s head. When the beast said, “ This is ridiculous. You know perfectly well you’ll only meet me down there- so don’t try to escape!” I think he was trying to tell Simon that he can’t escape what nature will do to you, and that no matter where you go the result will be the same.
To Reuben:
Because stealing the something on someone is easly noticed, and it was easier for a fire to be started with anotherfire. Also is it harder to steal fire? like now he does it in the book it went smothlyjust distract them and take it without them noticing.
Albert:
I don't think other people followed him because he was a good leader. Even though Jack is mean and vicious, he provides meat and is more adventurous. " The hunting and all that, being savages I mean-it must be jolly good fun"(pg.142) Since they are still kids they naturally want to have more fun. They don't think about the seriousness of the situation, and are attracted to fun things. Just like how the kids did not help with building the huts, and running off to play.
"-to a feast-" "-meat" "-crackling-" "- I could do with some meat-" ( pg.142) All the guys are desperate for meat, they have been eating fruits since the time they were stranded on the island. The first time Jack killed a pig even piggy and Ralph ate the pig. The great desire to eat meat and a funner life makes people go to Jack.
Question:
Why does Simon see the Lord of the Flies? does it mean Simon is scared of something? Or is he changing?
Yerry,
The Lord of the Flies is the dead sow’s head; Simon imagined it. The head of the dead sow, or the Lord of the Flies, really doesn’t speak in reality; only in Simon’s imagination. I’m not exactly sure what you mean by “Could there actually is someone on this island,” but I don’t believe that there is any other beast other then the beast and savageness in themselves.
Nick,
I don’t think that Jack lied.
“’On top, when Roger and me went on… he (Ralph) stayed back.’
‘I went too!’
‘After’” pg. 126
That’s not exactly lying; he’s telling the truth… in bits. Jack broke away from Ralph because Jack thinks that he is unfair and annoying. Jack feels like Ralph always bosses him around and blames him for things. The pilot is probably dead. As mentioned in the last chapter. As I said before, don’t believe that there is any other beast and savageness in themselves.
“He’s like Piggy. He says things like Piggy. He isn’t a proper chief.” Jack clutched the conch to him. “He’s a coward himself.” This quote shows how Jack still wants to be the chief of the group. He’s trying to make Ralph look bad infront of all the children on purpose—“He’s not a hunter. He’d never got us any meat. He isn’t a prefect and we don’t know anything about him. He gives orders and expects people to obey for nothing…” But the part I don’t understand is what does Jack mean by “…we don’t know anything about him…”?
The boys, especially Jack's, dehumanization becomes more and more obvious in chapter 8, at the part where they leave the pig's head for the beast. I think that Simon is a very interesting character. He has thing sort of connection with nature but is also civilized at the same time. When the pig head talks to him, I think it shows how the beast is not really a living thing, it's the savageness inside the boys.
Does the "Lord of the Flies" symbolize anything?
Yerry,
I’m not sure if I agree with you on your reply to Richard, I don’t think the Lord of the Flies represents the force and threat of nature. I don’t think arrogance has anything to do with the Lord of the Flies or even the forces of nature as you said. As I said before, I think the Lord of the Flies is the beast, but only within the children’s mind. I believe the Lord of the Flies symbolizes the savageness develop inside the kids through time on the island without rules or the law’s restriction.
Michael: I think Simon was lacking nutrition already, so he went insane and maybe the voice is coming from his head. But I kind of think it’s foreshadowing Simon’s death, because the quote says “ …He knew that one of his times was coming on.”
Timothy: I think because pigs are taken care of at first but then they are slaughtered for their meat. Just like the humans. Humans can be nice, but they also have this dark and evil side of them. So I think Golding used the pig’s head to show the good and bad sides of human nature.
Is Simon insane? Why does he think the Lord of the Flies is talking to him? Or does this have a deeper significance?
Albert: I highly doubt that any followers of Jack were afraid of him. I think they followed him was because they probably believe that he is truly a better leader. Jack also provides more food than Ralph does. The kids mainly want to have food and fun, which is what Jack mainly provides.
Albert: I think the others follow Jack for the meat, because they can’t survive with just fruit and water. And maybe some people are fed up with Ralph’s orders so they decide to follow Jack even they know about his aggressive personality.
From chapter 1 to chapter 7, Simon had been a quiete character. But in this chapter, Simon met the Lord of the Flies. What is the relation between Simon and Lord of the Flies? Also, what does Simon symbolize?
TO ROBERT: I think the Lord of the Flies symbolizes the natural human evil. Everyone has a dark side and we can't avoid it. The author chose "Lord of the Flies" for the title maybe to explain that every single human being has a natural evil side.
What/who is the lord of the flies mentioned in this chapter?
“Fancy thinking the beast was something you can hunt and kill!” said the head. For a moment or two the forest and all other dimly appreciated places echoed with the parody of laughter. “You knew didn’t you? I’m part of you? Close, close, close! I’m the reason why it’s no go? Why things are what they are?” the laughter shivered again. “Come now,” said the lord of the flies.
This quote really confused me I did not understand this part at all, is Simon talking to the pig’s head? Is the head the lord of the flies? Is lord of the flies’ part of Simon? Or is it just an illusion. Simon always seems to be unusual and weird compared to others, now he is talking to I think a very important character of the story since it’s the title of the story. The lord said he is the reason that things are what they are; I think that means the separation of the two groups and the conflict between Jack and Ralph. So this thing is the cause. Also it seems to know what the beast is. This character seems to know everything about this story however it seems only Simon can communicate with it, and it is telling Simon that everything is going bad. I think this foreshadows that the situation will get even worst later.
reuben: Jack doesn't want them to know that he needs them and the specs to make fire. Instead he chooses a way that shows his power--he could just take the fire from them.
How many children are still staying with Ralph? Why do they choose Ralph over Jack? Why do Sam and Eric choose to stay with Ralph? Why did Simon run away again? Is Simon not afraid of the beast before he goes into the forest, why? How did Simon come across the pig's head?
yah that's a lot of questions :P
good luck! :D
Haley: I think Simon symbolizes the truth because he knows what is true and what is false. I don’t think he was mentioned before to keep the beast a mystery, but then all of a sudden the truth comes out.
I got quite confuzzled at the last section of this chapter - the part where Simon is supposedly talking to the "Lord of the Flies" aka the head. :D I suppose "Lord of the Flies" comes from the pig's head attracting flies? (maybe I've just gone crazy)
It is also clear that Simon is hallucinating because a pig head can't really talk right?
But what does that whole paragraph mean? Lord of the Flies is a symbol of fear, but what has Simon have tod o with fear? He seems nice, a little crazy maybe, but not at all scared. Or maybe he is?
Kristin~
I think the actual beast on the Island is Jack since he seems very savage and scary.
Question~
Who is the Lord of the Flies? And what connection does it have with simon?
"'Hands up,' whoever wants chieck not to be chief?' The silence continued, breathless and heavy and full of shame. Slowly the red drained from Jack's cheeks, then came back with a painful rush. He licked his lips ans turned his head at an angle, so that his gaze avoided the embarrassment of linking with another's eye"
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Why did Jack choose to try to steal Ralph's position at that time? Why didn't he wait a little longer when he knew he would win for sure?
James: It says in one of the previous chapters that Simon was enjoying the beauty of nature, and I think that this has something to do with the “Lord of the Flies” talking in this chapter. The other boys, like Jack, are violent and savage and as for Ralph and Piggy, they don’t really enjoy nature, so the “Lord of the Flies” doesn’t talk to any of them. And now that we know that the Lord of the Flies is the Beast, I think it could foreshadow rescue [?]
Adam: The littluns choose Jack because of the meat. He tantalizes them with the pig’s meat, and the hungry little boys follow him. Sam and Eric seem more like Simon, more reasonable. Simon likes being by himself to think [?]
KristEn
I think that the boys are attracted to Jack because his style of "leadership" offers much more excitement than Ralph's method does. With Jack as the leader, they get to go exploring around the island, and they get to kill pigs. Who wouldn't want the excitement offered by exploring new lands and getting to kill pigs over sitting around maintaining a fire? Ralph's idea of waiting for rescue seems boring to many of the kids because they are kids, and they want to be doing something that they enjoy rather than something that is boring to them. Jack can offer them excitement and fun activities, but he isn't extremely smart of anything. Ralph, however, is more down-to-earth than Jack, thinking realistically about just getting off of the island. Jack offers more fun and games, while Ralph offers an idea of rescue. I think that they are more attracted to Jack because Jack seems to be more concerned with staying alive. He is hunting for meat and act as if they will never get off of the island. Ralph acts as if someone will eventually come to rescue them, so he does not seem to be preparing for a long-term stay on the island.
Question
"'Who thinks Ralph oughtn't be chief?'
'He looked expectantly at the boys ranged around, who had frozen...'
'Hands up...whoever wants Ralph not to be chief?'
'The silence continued...so that his gaze avoided the embarrassment of linking with another's eye...the humiliating tears were running from the corner of each eye." (pg 127)
What does Jack's departure from the group symbolize? Why don't the kids vote Ralph NOT to be chief? Is it really because they believe that he wouldn't do a good job? Or is there another reason for their actions? Why do many of the kids that were probably at the assembly later join up with Jack after they voted Ralph as chief?
(pg.143)
“Simons head was tilted up. His eyes could not break away and the Lord of the Flies hung in space before him.”
“What are you doing out here all alone? Aren’t you afraid of me?” Simon shook. “There isn’t anyone to help you. Only me. And I’m the Beast.”
I found this particular chapter pretty fascinating, especially when it got to the part about the Lord of the Flies. I read other peoples responses, and I saw many people ask, “Who is exactly the Lord of the Flies.” And I had that question too, but after reading the description a couple of times, I realized it was something else. Obviously, material-wise, the Lord of the Flies is the pig’s head in which Jack and the hunters had “offered” to the beast. However, for some reason, the head, a.k.a the Lord of the Flies, talks to Simon. And at this point it made me think of the discussion Ms. Lin brought up in class yesterday. In the discussion, some people made hypothesis about Simon maybe being some sort of prophet, and might be an important symbol in the story. So….Simon might have some important relation to the pig’s head, which is going to be the main point of the story (maybe, im just guessing). Also, usually when I read books, when I get to the part in the book, and it mentions the title of the story, I always infer that wow, this must be really important and must be symbolizing something and having great significance. Anyways, my main point is that what I understood from the chapter, is that the Lord of the Flies, and Simon play important role later on. AND……….Heres my question….:
What role do you think Simon and the Lord of the Flies, (the pigs head XD) will play later on in the book. That’s all. Oh btw, I sorta thought of Wilson from the movie “castaway” when the book mentioned the pig’s head talking to simon. XD
Alice: I think what Jack meant was that, Ralph never revealed too much about himself. None of the boys knew much about Ralph, except for maybe Piggy and Simon. It could also be because Ralph wasn't especially good at anything. He wasn't a hunter, but simply a chief who wanted to have the fire and get rescued.
“I’m not going to be a part of Ralph’s lot…” Jack said.
This part of the story is interesting. Jack finally break away from Ralph, and decide to make his own group at the other end of the island. Also, Jack seems to take power, and that many other littluns does not seem to listen or get effect from Ralph words. When Jack invites them to go to their festival, many littluns wants to go because there’s meat. Ralph is having a hard time for keeping his state, as a leader. But what’s ironic is they both have something that they need from each other. Jack needs fire because he does not know how to make fire. Ralph does not have enough people or biguns to help hunting for meat. Only if Ralph and Jack would come together and cooperate together, things would work out very smoothly. Now that Jack and Ralph is not on the same lot, but no harm is going to happen because both Jack and Ralph did have the idea of hurting each other.
Response:
We know more about the boy’s dehumanization in chapter 8 from the killing of the sow and leaving the head on a stick for the beast. The boys are going overboard and they seem to be crazy about violence and killing.
When Jack blew the conch to hold an assembly and the boys came, it shows that Jack has gained power. However, not up to the top yet, because the boys refuse to vote Ralph out from power. Jack, obviously, isn’t happy about it, so he walks away. However, he creates his own tribe and welcomes everyone to join him.
He and his crew had a bloody hunt and feast. The author describes “Here, struck down by the heat, the sow fell and the hunters hurled themselves at her. This dreadful eruption from an unknown world made her frantic; she squealed and bucked and the air was full of sweat and noise and blood and terror,” with many details, and I think the author did this on purpose to show how violent and bloody the hunt was. “Right up her ass!” Roger was even driving his spear in the sow’s anus. I think the boys are going wild, they are really becoming savages.
They even act like bandits now. “Roger spoke. ‘Chief—’ ‘Uh—’ ‘How can we make a fire?’ Jack squatted back and frowned at the pig. ‘We’ll raid them and take the fire. There must be four of you; Henry and you, Robert and Maurice. We’ll put on paint and sneak up; Roger can snatch a branch while I say what I want.’” The boys are going to go on an incursion to Ralph and Piggy’s place. They dare to do that now, meaning that they would dare to do anything. This doesn’t show dehumanization, but it shows the violent boys’ unity. They are united to do something bad, but I think that if they can be united with Ralph and Piggy, they can be rescued faster. They are using their “skills of being united” in a bad way.
Question: It seemed like Jack and Ralph were getting a little better with each other in chapter 7, but why was there a sudden change in chapter 8? AND do you think boys this age would actually do the stuff Jack and Ralph do in the novel? I think the story would make more sense to me if the boys were teenagers.
Posting a question:
What happen to Simon? What does this quote means when The Lord of the Flies said to Simon? – “You knew, didn’t you? I’m part of you? Close, close, close! I’m the reason why it’s no go? Why things are what they are?” How do you think the beast is important to them later in the story?
Diane :
I think the reason Golding describes the scene when they were killing the pig like rape is because he is trying to show us the true image of cruelty and savageness of people. Why did Jack kill the sow when he could've killed any other pig? I think he enjoyed seeing the pig squealing in pain when he was kiling it; sort of like a bully hurting a weaker kid, as I mentioned before in my earlier responses (or at least I think I mentioned it).
Question :
What is the connection between the Lord of the Flies, the beast, fear and dehumanization?
From what I know, I think a major theme in this story is the process of dehumanization and losing your identity as a human. You slowly turn into an animal after civilization is lost. Civilization and order among the kids fade away as the story develops. In this chapter, civilization crumbles and they are split into two groups.
I think the beast is a symbol of fear of the unknown. They are immediately frightened by the thought of a beast being on exact island they're on, even when they have no clear idea of what it actually is. It's somewhat like a young child being afraid of the dark. No one tells him that the darkness is hiding something, but they don't know what might be in the darkness. This lack of information initiates fear in our system, causing us to be scared of the things that we cannot explain or identify.
Frank,
(Why is Simon having this illusion about the Lord of the Flies? Is it because he knows that the beast is actually the savageness of themselves?)
Who says this was an illusion? Maybe the pig head on the stick really talked and told Simon what a loser he was.
Okay just kidding.
Before he “met” the Lord of the Flies, I do not think he knew that the beast was actually the fear inside them. Maybe he thought they were imagining it, but I don’t think he was worried about it enough to psychoanalyze everyone. However, after the pig “talked” to him in his mind, he realized that even though the beast wasn’t with them physically, it was substantial enough in their minds to drive them crazy.
Diane,
LOL, yes, Golding did make the kill sound like rape. I think that was intentional, too, because rape is one of the most vile and violent crime forms, and it shows that even little boys are capable of such atrocities.
I think Simon had a bout of surrealism--he had a hallucination. Pigs can't talk, let alone a decapitated head, and the "pounding" of the blood is the sign of a feverish state.
My question: In the Bible, the Lord of the Flies is a name of the devil (Beelzebub). What does this relation between Satan, the Pig-head, Simon's hallucination, and the book's title mean???
Reply to Kimberly's response:
I agree with what you said. I did notice how close they are becoming savage, especially Jack and the others who follow him. But at this point, I think Jack is trying to praise the beast, to favor the beast so that the beast wouldn't come and hunt them. But is there a point in doing this? I'm not sure about it.
so now the feud has reached its highest point. Jack left. Do you think they should try to get jack back? or not.
haley: simon is the person that we should trust. He could determine what's right and wrong. maybe Simon would be the most important guy in here
Wow...the violence and seperation is growing. Jack has assembled a small group of followers who kill relentlessly. My question is, who else will join Jack? Will all the other kids, excited by the idea of a hunt, abandon the fire and go towards the killing?
Weifan: I think the Devil stands for the evil and savagery within all of us. It's showing how the savagery is slowly infesting all the boys on the island, and is all around them. The littleuns can feel it in their dreams, and it scares them. Perhaps they are the only hope now, the only ones besides Simon able to sense what is truly going on.
In response to Liang,
I totally agree with you. I think the beast is less of a physical fear/threat than a mental one. The beast symbolizes the kids' inner fears. It is interesting to note how the pig was once a female mother of several little pigs. Most likely, this was symbolic for hope and life. However, after she was killed by savageness as a result of dehumanization, she turns into a symbolic fear. This may show us that what is to fear is not the act of turning savage or getting dehumanized but rather what could happen as a result of it. The pig seemed to be enjoying the day and feeding her young before being killed. Nevertheless, after being brutally killed, she becomes the "Lord of the Flies" and thus the "Beast" in Simon's mind. The Lord of the Flies symbolizes a dark fear wrought by the onset of dehumanization and savagery. While the Lord of the Flies symbolizes all this, the conch symbolizes hope, humanity and civilization. Not only is it considered sacred to Ralph's followers but also regarded as an icon to hope and humanity. The fact that the conch's color is white may even suggest purity and hope. However, as the conch falls into disfavor, the talks of the "Beast" starts to rise and strikes an internal fear in them. By killing the pig it may be a foreshadow for the demise of humanity, civilization, hope and the onset of savagery for the island. What was once full of hope and life (the island) suddenly becomes a fear causes the internal schism in the island.
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My question:
In this chapter, The Lord of the Flies seems to be the focus of the chapter, so why was it chosen as the title? The "Lord of the Flies" seems to be highly symbolic. The fact that the most quiet, Simon, was the one to get the vision. Why do you think Golding had Simon be the character who got the vision? So what role does Simon play in the novel?
KEVIN:
I think that competition will arise between Ralph and Jack to survive on the island. No, I don’t think that Ralph and Jack would reunite. They have two completely different personalities. Jack believes that hunting for pigs are important, but Ralph believes that the signal fire is the most important thing. “Oh yes. Without the fire we can’t be rescued. So we must stay by the fire and make smoke.”(142)
More evidence of why it is impossible for Ralph and Jack to reunite can be seen in the earlier chapters. From the time Ralph was elected as chief, Jack hated him; he wanted to bring Ralph down and make himself chief. This is not shown as much in the beginning of the story, but it starts to become more prominent over time. For example, in chapter five, Jack starts to protest or go against Ralph in the assembly. In chapter eight, Jack finally expresses his wish for Ralph to not be chief. “Who thinks Ralph oughtn’t to be chief?”
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"Tonight we're having a feast. We've killed a pig and we've got meat. You can come and eat with us if you like."(140)
Why is Jack doing this?
Chapter 8 question
“This time Robert and Maurice acted the two parts; and Maurice’s acting of the pig’s efforts to avoid the advancing spear was so funny that the boys cried with laughter.” (136). Why does Jack and his followers create these reenacting of their hunting experiences? “Jack held up the head and jammed the soft throat down on the pointed end of the stick which pierced through into the mouth. He stood back and the head hung there, a little blood dribbling down the stick.”(137) This looks like a ritual that undeveloped cultures practice, offering a pig head to a beast. The beast symbolized the God that sacrifices were offered to. The reenactments also seemed like rituals. Are these signs indicating that Jack and his followers have fully become savages? Do they not care about getting rescued anymore?
Reply to Albert: I think they follow Jack because they want meat to satisfy their hunger instead of getting rescued. “Tonight we’re having a feast. We’ve killed a pig and we’ve got meat. You can come and eat with us if you like.” (140) I don’t think anyone is afraid of Jack, except maybe the littleuns. As seen in the above quote, Jack is being generous and he is not trying to threaten people to join. He tells people to join according to their choice, but since many of the children want meat, it is likely that they will go to Jack’s side in the end.
ALBERT:
Once Jack officially leaves, many also follow him, do you think they follow Jack because he is a good leader or through the need of hunt? Or maybe do they do this because they are afraid of him?
I think the people who follow Jack follow him because they think that it's more exciting with Jack than with Ralph. When they are with Ralph, all they do is build shelters and make fires. Compared to hunting for pigs, that's very boring. The people who follow Jack are also dehumanizing. They are becoming like savages.
Some kids may think that going with Jack is their only way of survival. They practically given up on being rescued. So if they continue to make fires, it would be a waste of time and would not benefit to their survival.
Once Jack officially leaves, many also follow him, do you think they follow Jack because he is a good leader or through the need of hunt? Or maybe do they do this because they are afraid of him?
When Jack leaves Ralph's leadership, many simply follow him not because of his great leadership, but for the pork meat. Jack wasn't a very good leader because he shows discrimination to the littleuns, and all those who are weak and supports Ralph. Ralph was left out because he couldn't generate the excitment from the hunt, thus losing the followers that only depend on the how much fun the leader generates. Some also follow Jack because they were simply afraid that Jack would do somthing evil to them if they stayed with Ralph. Jack has shown himself capable of killing pigs, so why not the power to torture people?
My question:
Would all the boys ditch Ralph for Jack's tribe or remain with Ralph for the hopes of being rescued.
I'm directly starting my response here. Here I go!
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This chapter...was very distubing. Yes, troubling, but at the same time, disturbing. All the things that have happened from the division and on didn't seem to be anything good, and I have a feeling that nothing good could come of this either. Perhaps what is most intriguing was the end of the chapter where Simon was evidentally going crazy inside his mind. What is the siginficance of this part? Does it symbolize something? Does it foreshadow something? I think that at least Simon is a sort-of symbol in himself. He is very different than the others and he seems to possess a different type of thinking; after all, he is going nuts in the brain which is evidentally revealing what he is thinking; but what does it mean?
It's as if the pig's head knew what Simon was thinking, then again, I already expressed a thought around that. When it came to "I'm a part of you[.]" it hit me hard that this could be a great deal of symbolism. Since the pig said that itself was the beast, and suggested that he is part of Simon, could that make a connection to something else? Perhaps we'll find out...
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Now I think I'll respond to...Jerry L.!
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So we do see the climax coming do we? Jack is gone, and I don't htink that Ralph will try to get him back. First of all, Jack's too rash and mostly useless (other then barbaric stuff). Second of all, he's too aggressive to get back seriously. I think we may find Simon to play some awkward significance in the near future. We'll just have to see...
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Wow. First time directly typing like this! :D
"...and Piggy stood on the platform, the white conch gripped in his hands." (pg. 140)
"The groups of boys looked at the white shell with affectionate respect. Piggy placed it in Ralph's hand and the littluns, seeing the familiar symbol, started to come back." (page 141)
Why is the conch so vitally important to the boys? Not that it didn't help them greatly before, but they could just as easily find a random rock or something to replace it if it was taken. It is so significant, it even brings the littluns back when they were frightened. Also, protecting it was the first thing Piggy thought to do. What would have happened if Jack got the conch [even though he was only planning to get the fire]?
Diane: I sort of agree with Liang, I also think Golding is trying to bring out the savageness and cruelty of humanity. In addition to that, I think he is signifying how cruel the boys have become. I became disgusted as I read, "...the sow staggered her way ahead of them, bleeding and mad, and the hunters followed, wedded to her in lust, excited by the long chase and dropped blood." (page 134) The boys watched as she died slowly from each additional blow from a spear or knife and in pain. It seems as though the excitement they felt in the chase prevented them from an instant kill. They might just be so caught up in the "fun," they fail to see how much pain they are causing, but i still think they're evil.
to stevey:
A: During the hunt, all the boys become excited and closer to their savage side, and after the kill is finished, they are all filled with pride and accomplishment at this feat, so they reenact the whole hunt, each boy showing off where he had shown himself to be a hunter, and allowing the rest of their fired up and violent emotions cool through the mock kill. “He (Jack) giggled and flicked them(hands) while the boys laughed at his reeking palms. Then Jack grabbed Maurice and rubbed the stuff over his cheeks…”
For the second question, Jack and his followers haven’t really become full savages, because they still have the knowledge from their past life, but they just choose to ignore it. Real savages are men (or women) who completely don’t know they are doing something wrong, so no, Jack and his followers may seem like real savages on the outside, but if you dig really deep (into their hearts and souls….-_-) you’ll find a shred of their former self. I feel that Jack still wants to be rescued, but he loves the feeling of complete dominance and tries to cover up these feelings of insecurity by use of hunting and killing. The same goes for the other boys (except maybe Roger). Proof of this is shown when they are still secretly frightened of the beast, instead of completely revering it, “The silence accepted the gift and awed them….All at once they were running away, as fast as they could, through the forest toward the open beach”, showing that their former, civilized fear of the beast still remains and so does their consciousness, and their “hunter” act of bravado had briefly been shaken by the truth of what they have done.
-Nightwolf
Q: What is the significance of Simon’s “conversation” with the Lord of the Flies (pighead)? What does it mean when “Simon was in the mouth. He fell down and lost consciousness.” ? Does this show that Simon too has succumbed the to allure of the savagery like Jack and his followers have? Or is Simon finally driven insane by the torment of fear and lack of rescue due to his illness?
Through this chapter, not only there were a lot of power struggle, but also there was something that has confused me. The part where Jack was telling the children bad things about Ralph. Why does he do that? Is it for taking over Ralph’s power? What does he meant by saying that? And also why didn't the children raise their hands up when Jack was asking whether Ralph should be the chief or not? What do the children think about Jack in this moment? Scary? Weird? Or what?
In this story, for me, I see that the children are more cooperating without Jack. They are helping each other out and thinking of ideas together. Why? Is it because they were too scared of Jack, so they always listen to Jack? What other answer can answer this question?
“We can do without ‘em. We’ll be happier now, won’t we?"- Piggy, page 131
Why does he say that? Is it only to cheer the children and, mostly, Ralph? Or he is thinking more about himself? Because if there is no Jack around them, then Piggy won’t be teased or hit. So what does Piggy mean by saying that? For his own good or cheering other people up?
“We’ll hunt. I’m going to be chief."–Jack, page 133
So obviously, he still wants to be the chief. All he thinks about is hunting and being a chief. Through these chapters, we can kind of tell what kind of personality that Jack have. For me, I think he is very competitive and very wild at the same time. I think when he is in this island he is revealing the true him, like hunting and seeing the blood.
“We are going to forget the beast."–Jack, page 133
Now, why is he saying to forget about the beast? In the beginning of this chapter, he was saying that Ralph is a coward and saying that Ralph is scared of the beast. But obviously, he is scared of the beast too, and he calls his hunter to forget about the beast? For me he doesn't look like a good chief.
The Lord of the Flies comes from the Hebrew word Ba'alzevuv, which means Lord of the Flies. The Greek version of the word, Beelzebub, is sometimes used to describe the Devil. Maybe the pig's-head-on-a-stick is called the lord of the flies because it is the devil that lives in everyone's hearts. Simon is the first to hear it consciously, but he just faints instead of doing much. The head symbolizes the Beast that is actually the inner evil of the kids. Sometimes it gets unconsciously tapped into, but now it is a physical embodiment. IT happens right after Jack leaves the original tribe, and that may mean something to come in the future.
On page 135, the book emphasizes on the butterflies. What do the butterflies represent?
"This head is for the beast. It's a gift." (137) Why is the pig head a gift for the beast? Why give a gift? I thought the boys hates the beast, because it kept scaring them.
Kimi:
“We are going to forget the beast."–Jack, page 133
Now, why is he saying to forget about the beast? In the beginning of this chapter, he was saying that Ralph is a coward and saying that Ralph is scared of the beast. But obviously, he is scared of the beast too, and he calls his hunter to forget about the beast? For me he doesn't look like a good chief.
Jack wants to make himself look very manly and grown-up, so that others would respect him and follow him. He is like a child, such as the time when he cried. He says mean thing about Ralph to make others follow him and to make Ralph look bad.
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