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"Fancy thinking the Beast was something you could hunt and kill" (143)!
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2008
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October
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- Please post your response for chapter 12
- Please post your response for Chapter 11
- Please post your response for chapter 10
- Please post your response for Chapter 9
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- Please post your response for Chapter 7
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- LORD OF THE FLIES Reader Response Journal
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October
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87 comments:
"A sound behind him made him turn. Jack was edging along the ledge.
“Couldn’t let you do it on your own.”
Ralph said nothing. He led the way over the rocks (106)"
Does Jack care about Ralph, or was he doing it because he felt like he had a share in the leading-the-way thing?
*Is Jack asserting his growing power to Ralph? Does this signify anything? Foreshadow?
Jack's increasing credibility among the group isolates Ralph from the other boys, who find Jack's focus on the games of hunting and building forts more appealing than Ralph's commitment to keeping the fire burning and remaining safe. After all, what is so bad about a life on the beach with plenty of fruit and fun? Throughout the chapter, Golding develops this rift between the more mature Ralph and the other boys. Ralph finds he must ally himself with the intellectual Piggy and the introspective Simon. As the other boys narrow their focus to pure self-interest, with a limited focus on survival and a greater goal of satisfying their boyish desires (playing as hunters), Ralph, who strives to balance priorities successfully, represents practical reason and democratic ethics. Piggy the problem-solver represents pure intellect. Simon, in contrast, is a spiritual thinker.
Will the people eventually want to go back home? or are they just going to follow Jack thinking he is a good leader?
"Conch! Conch!" shouted Jack. "We don't need the conch any more. We know who ought to say things..."
What does this symbolize? Is the conch losing its power and authority?
“If only they could get a message to us… If only they could send us something grownup… a sign or something.” Pg 94
Through this quote, I think Ralph now has given into Piggy. Piggy before said that grownups new this and that, always doing what is right, but now even the chief agrees. The island is a mess. Now their chances of survival seem slim, almost nobody supports Ralph now, except for Simon and Piggy. Jack now doesn’t care about the fire, the smoke, or shelter. He only wants to hunt and hunt and hunt. Piggy seems now to be doomed, for Ralph is pessimistic and unwilling to go on as the chief. As for Jack, he is now losing his mind and becoming a savage, a real savage. The question is, will the children be rescued now since Jack has won and is only focused on killing, and what will become of Ralph, Piggy and Simon?
diane: I think Jack both cares about Ralph and wants a share in the leadership. When he sees Ralph risking his life while crossing over the dangerous parts of the ledge, I think he feels like he should go with him for at least spiritual support, but he doesn't go yet. Then, he realizes that if he went he could sort of be the leader, and that's what really drives him to go with Ralph.
I think this signifies that Jack cares a little bit about Ralph, but his actions in the end are always for the benefit of himself.
My question:
On page 103, it says "However Simon thought of the beast, there rose before his inward sight the picture of a human at once heroic and sick." Why does Simon see a human when he thinks of a beast? Does he see many flaws in humans that make them beastlike? To him, are there connections between being "heroic and sick" and being "beast"?
diane: I think Jack was trying to become leader. He does this so he can do a freidnly take over and thus getting Ralph to make him chief.
Jennifer~
well possibly because they have the fire up everyday so SOMEDAY someone might see it so i think their is a big possiblity that they will get rescued. And also i think SOME people might follow jack. Like the choir people perhaps.
Question~
Why did they have to eat first before taking their spears to find the beast? Would people eat before they might get eaten?Would You?
As we can see now, the balance between civilization and savagery on the island shifts, and Ralph's control over the group diminishes. At the beginning, Ralph's orders onto the other boys are secure, but now, they're starting to lose their track. Will this thing cotinue? or will it be good later?
I think it will get worse because jack is getting more power. Now, Jack is able to manipulate Ralph by asking him, in front of the other boys, whether he is frightened. This question forces Ralph to act irrationally simply for the sake of preserving his status among the other boys.
Also, from the air battle and dead parachutist, we can see the larger setting of this novel. We know that the war isn't over yet. So my question is, does the war symbolizes anything?
my answer is yes. War represents the savage outbursts of civilization, when the desire for violence and power overwhelms the desire for order and peace. Even though the outside world has bestowed upon the boys a sense of morality and order, the danger of savagery remains real even within the context of that seemingly civilized society that has nurtured them.
What is the thing that dropped in a parachute?
“There was a sudden bright explosion and corkscrew trail across the sky; then darkness and again the stars. There was a speck above the island, a figure dropping swiftly beneath a parachute, a figure that hung with dangling limbs.”
While I read the part, I felt a little hope for Ralph and children. I guessed
that the thing that dropped in the parachute was a human. I think he/she came to the island to rescue the children. Unfortunately, none of the children saw or heard the explosion or the figure that fell out of the sky.
“We’ll go to the mountain. The clamor broke out. Some of the boys wanted to go back to the beach. Some wanted to roll more rocks. The sun was bright danger had faded with the darkness.”….. “‘We can roll rocks’… ‘Right onto the bridge’… ‘I say we’ll go on!’ shouted Ralph furiously. ‘We’ve got to make certain. We’ll go now.’ ‘Let’s stay here’ ‘Back to the shelter’ ‘I’m tired’ ‘NO!’…
Why are the children starting to disrespect Ralph? Why aren’t they afraid of protesting to Ralph now?
I think the children disrespect Ralph now, because their first priority on their minds isn’t being rescued anymore. Jack is also one of the main reasons why Ralph is being disrespected. Jack has meat, and food is the most important thing on the island because of survival. The children aren’t afraid of protesting against Ralph mainly because Jack had always been against Ralph. This caused the children to think that it’s okay to ignore what Ralph says or disobey the rules. Since the children are still immature, they tend to be attracted to more exciting activities, such as hunting, exploring…etc. which are all lead by Jack. Ralph on the other hand, forced them to take care of the fire, which was probably a boring task for them.
“The figure fell and crumpled among the blue flowers of the mountain-side, but now there was a gentle breeze at this height too and the parachute flopped and banged and pulled”
In this chapter Ralph builds the courage in others to search for the so-called beasts. This chapter really shows Ralph’s leadership because it built up confidence in order to tell Jack to follow his rules. “Conch! Conch!” shouted Jack. “ We don’t need the conch anymore. We know who ought to say things. What good did Simon do speaking, or Bill, or Walter? —“
I think this is saying that later on Jack might break off from Ralph’s group and that the conch is losing more of its significance because of this. Jack still respects Ralph but I think he will lose more patience later on since he’s reaction to what Ralph says are changing.
How is the conch losing its power? Is the conch going to be any use later in the story? How has Ralph mature from the beginning to now?
Angela- Jack assertion that the boys no longer need the conch shell in meetings signifies Jack's explicit rejection of the democratic rules established in the boys' first meeting.
yes, the conch is certainly losing its power because of people breaking rules, like Jack and shows how their cilvilization is collapsing.
Diane: I think that Jack is ashamed that he held back out when no one went forward, Ralph said to Jack, "You're a hunter" and Jack went red. Ralph volunteered to go by himself, after a while. Jack probably does this because otherwise he'd lose his dignity and pride. I guess he kind of feels like it is his “responsibility” to do the dangerous things on the island, such as hunting and exploring, but I also believe that Jack is still human, and seeing Ralph go off by himself to face the unknown stirs something in his heart. He has a grudging admiration and liking of Ralph although they often disagree about hunting, the fire, and things like that. Most of his actions, however, are done for his own benefit. So, this might also be an opportune chance to show his leadership.
diane
I think that Jack is starting to think that he is the leader, and he is trying to act the way he thinks a leader should. He is trying to prove that he should be leader, and that Ralph should not. “He let Jack lead the way, and Jack trod with theatrical caution though they could have seen an enemy twenty yards away. Ralph walked away, thankful to have escaped responsibility for a time.” Jack “trods with theatrical caution” because he believes that as a leader, he should be setting an example for the others to follow, and this way of trotting is showing the others to be ever vigilant when hunting, something that Jack believes he is good at. I think that at the particular part, Jack helps Ralph because he feels guilty about letting Ralph do all the work, but most of it is because he thinks that Ralph is taking his role as leader and that if he doesn’t help, Ralph will have taken leadership again through work effort. Jack doesn’t want the others to think that he is letting Ralph do all the dirty work because that would give them a bad impression of him as a leader, so he decides to help to show that he is helpful. This also brings back flashbacks of when they had first come to the island, when everyone had helped each other and they were all friends. These recollections are painful for them to remember as they think of the state they are in now, and they quickly forget about it. Also, at the end of the chapter, “Jack led the way down the rock and across the bridge.” Jack is leading the group, not Ralph, showing how Jack knows more about the island than Ralph. Jack also seems to be liked by the older children more, but Ralph is favored by the littluns because he sympathizes with them about the beast, while Jack tells them to shut up.
This could signify how Jack is getting more and more authority over the camp, and Ralph is losing more and more of his old authority. During the assemblies, the littluns question him and what he says, so that he is forced to impress upon them the importance of what he is saying. However, once Jack mentions the pig, they entire tribe seems to support him. Jack uses this support against Ralph until Ralph is forced to back up his statements with supporting thoughts, something that Jack is unable to do.
Question
The title of chapter 5 was "Beast from Water" and the title from chapter 6 is "Beast from Air". Is there any relation between what happens in the two chapters that causes Golding to use these titles? What is the difference between the "beast in water" and the "beast in air"? What is the importance of these two titles?
In Response to Angela:
When Jack says "We don't need the conch any more. We know who ought to say things...", he is trying to show his authority and his "say" on the island. It symbolizes an end to Ralph's control over the island and how his power and "say" on things is starting to weaken. Additionally, it also means that Jack is showing and making clear to everyone that he is the new leader on the island and people should follow him. Jack is trying to assert his power that what the bigguns (excluding Piggy) are the most important, what other people (especially littluns) say are unimportant. It shows an end to democratic and civilized rule and the beginning of autocracy where they no longer cared whether they get rescued or not. Lastly, it also shows that if they have the material possessions (meat) what does civilized democracy mean? Nothing, because the holder of the food and resources is the leader no matter who was elected on the island. The rest of the populace would then surely follow suite.
=-=-=-=-=-=-=-
My question:
On p. 108 when it says:
"I'm chief. We've got to make certain. ............." Mutinously, the boys fell silent or muttering. Jack led the way down the rock and across the bridge.
Does this symbolize a sort of submissive stance of Jack towards Ralph? Or would a sort of balanced power? Or is it a power shift? Could this be the beginning of cooperation and mutual respect? If Ralph's order was respected by Jack but the procession was led by Jack. Who held the power at the end of the chapter? Ralph or Jack?
michael: the quote at chapter 5, “What I mean is . . . Maybe it's only us . . .”said simon, is connected to your question.
Humans might have evil thoughts in them. Jack, for example, is a savage now. He wanted to kill instead of building shelters. He tried to be heroic (?) but became sick because it's bloody (killing) and it's like what beasts do, kill. I'm not sure if im right, but i think he did see the connection between humans and beasts
Diane:
Jack and Ralph's bond is healing, but it could also to try let Ralph join his group without an argument. I think Jack does not care for Ralph, and humiliated him in front of others. The group is getting messed up by the "monster".
Angela: I think the conch is still really important to Ralph. It somewhat signifies order and authority -> and that is Ralph's lead, everything neat and reasonably said, a civilised society. Jack disregarding the conch as is important as Ralph does shows how much value he has for civilisation, which is hardly any. He is heading back to the primitivism and savagery.
The power is shifting from the conch/Ralph/reason to Jack/excitement/pighunting.
What do you think the figure falling from the sky symbolises? From what I read, it appears that a plane or something exploded in the sky, and an occupant - a grownup- of the vehicle had parachuted himself, but seems to have died on the way.
At first I thought it was a sign of hope, a reminder that adults will probably eventually find them, or they know there are such islands around (or maybe it was a search team?) but after it explained that the figure was involuntarily moving - meaning he's probably dead - it doesn't seem much like a sign of hope anymore. And when Samneric and everyone else supposed it was the beast, well that's definitely not hopeful or good in any way.
What do you think it symbolises?
My question:
Why do you think Golding suddenly let the parachuter land on the island?
diane: i think jack somehow cares about ralph, since he is still however the chief, but still, jack does not want ralph to take all the possible credits for killing the beastie and saving the kids. jack probably also wants to have a share of that pride.
jenny: the kids already want to go back home, all of them. Yes, they wanted to be rescued, there was no doubt about that; (p. 102)
angela: i think it foreshadows that jack will somehow make the unity and civilization of the group disappear.
Jerry: I think that the war symbolizes life and death. It's kind of like the children on the island who have to face the struggle of being rescued and not being rescued.
albert: I belive that ralph, piggy, and simon will somehow find a way through this mess on the island.
diane: I think that Jack did not want to lose to Ralph on being brave/leading-the-way thing. He's too arrogant to let Ralph lead the way.
jerry lee: I agree; I think that the "war" on the island is between savageness and peace. Ralph is struggling to reach peace, while Jack is already transformed into a savage. Piggy, on the otherhand is the only one that remains on the "peace" side.
"Piggy took off his damaged glasses and cleaned the remaining lens. 'How about us, Ralph?' 'You haven't got the conch. Here.'"
In the earlier chapters, Piggy always had the conch before talking and never interrupted. In chapter six, Piggy talked when he didn't have the conch. What was the significance of this? Do you think Piggy is going to become a savage?
“A strange thing happened in his head. Something flittered there in front of his mind like a bat’s wings, obscuring his idea.
‘Smoke.’
At once the ideas were back, and the anger.
‘We want smoke. And you go wasting your time. You roll rocks.’
…
‘No!’
Ralph struck the skin off his knuckles. They did not seem to hurt.
‘I’m chief. We’ve got to make certain. Can’t you see the mountain? There’s no signal showing. There may be a ship out there. Are you all off your rockers?’
Mutinously, the boys fell silent or muttering.
Jack led the way down the rock and across the bridge.”- William Golding Lord of the Flies page 107~108
What is the significance of this section? Why does JACK lead the way back? How does Ralph assert his authority?
Sam and Eric said they saw the beast.
“’It was furry. There was something moving behind its head…wings. The beast moved too…’
‘That was awful. It kind of sat up…’
‘The fire was bright…’
‘We’d just made it up…’
‘More sticks on…’
‘There were eyes…’
‘Teeth…’
‘Claws…’
‘We ran as fast as we could…’
‘Bashed into things…’
‘The beast followed us…’
‘I saw it slinking behind the trees…’
‘Nearly touched me…’" pg. 100
What did they actually see? Was it the dead parachute-man guy or just a pig? What made them make such a story?
To kristen: The group's already got it in their heads that fooling around's okay. There's the vibe that Jack's the leader (and so hunting, playing around = priority) and Ralph is just shoved off to the side, insignifigant. He does try to bring them back by bossing them around ("We need fire"). The section signifies Jack's even higher level of control over the boys, and how Ralph's losing ground and fast.
Chuni:
I think that the power is shifting from Jack and Ralph, most of the people want to follow Jack and only a few wants to follow Ralph. When Jack mentions hunting and other fun stuff to do, the power shifts to Jack, the assembly willingly follows Jack. However, when Ralph mentions about the signal fire or about getting rescued, the assembly will start listening to him, unwillingly. It’s like when you know there is a lot of homework, but you still chose to play games.
The hope of getting rescued is the only thing Ralph can use to convince the boys to cooperate. However, their cooperation will only last a short period of time because they’ll get tired of working and someone like Jack would start hunting and the rest of the assembly would give up on the work again.
In the end of this chapter, Ralph holds the power, he reminds the assembly that there might be a ship. Although they want to do roll rocks and build forts, they knew that they also wanted to get rescued, so they listened to Ralph.
“Far beneath them, the trees of the forest sighed, then roared. The hair on their foreheads fluttered and blames blew out sideways from the fire. Fifteen yards away from them came the plopping noise of fabric blown open” (98) Why did the trees roar? Could it just have been a strong wind and the roaring was the rustling noise made by the leaves? Why was there also a sound of fabric being ripped apart? Could that symbolize a ripping of flesh? Or could it just be the person who parachuted down in the beginning of the chapter, trying to get himself out of the mess of lines and parachute?
How sarcastic of this story that the fire always die away when there is people from outside passing by. Does it foreshadow that such thing is going to happen again?
Jenny: Your response is really awesome and thorough. It's just like one of those you see online.
As for your question, I think that they are all going to follow Jack because although he really isn't a better leader than Ralph, he gives them food and makes them feel safe by promising to kill the "beast" if it exists. Jack hasn't asked the little kids to do anything, yet they receive free food. Naturally, they'd want to follow Jack.
Ralph only scolds them for being so incompetent in using the rocks as a bathroom and keeping the fire-their only chance of being rescured-alive. They're too young to listen to Ralph's reasoning.
"I'm chief. We've got to make certain. Can't you see the mountain? There's no dignal showing. There may be a ship out there. Are you all off your rockers?" -Ralph (p. 108)
Of all the characters, Ralph is the only one who still thinks about rescue. Ending the chapter with these words, Ralph is regaining his followers by imploring them to use their common sense, so they realize the importance of the fire to their rescue. None of them want to stay on the island forever (except maybe Jack).
But after Ralph says those words, Jack still leads everyone down the rocks in search of the "beast." Jack still has the power to lead the group, and this competition between Ralph and Jack will continue. I still think Jack is going to win though.
How did the dead parachute guy get on the island?
Jenny-
I think that most of the boys do want to go home, but maybe except for Jack. They are just following Jack because they are afraid of the beast and Jack says that they can just kill the beast if there really is a beast. And also because he has meat. Jack's confidence makes the boys feel safer.
Angela:
The conch is clearly losing its power as time goes on. Though the children still listen to the rule, Jack usually didn't listen to the rule and other children are slowly beginning to rebel from the influence of the conch and the rules that Ralph set up. It clearly shows and symbolizes how Ralph's power is diminishing and shows the change from being civilized to being savages. When Jack says "we know who ought to say things" he probably means that "we" know who should be in charge and direct how everything goes. "We" should let the better people talk and not let the littluns talk because they will only cause more fear.
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My question is:
on page 102
"Piggy let out his breath with a gasp, reached out for it again and failed. He lay against a log, his mouth gaping, blue shadows creeping round his lips. Nobody minded him."
Is this an asthma attack? If it is, what might happen to the littluns now that the bigguns are not around? What might happen to Piggy?
Angela : I think that this symbolizes Jack's rebellious side and that Jack is about to rebel against Ralph. Jack is implying that everyone should listen to him because he's a better leader than Ralph. Jack provides food and fun and that's what the kids want at the moment so the kids listen to Jack more than they listen to Ralph.
Jack believes that he has power over the group. He believes he has the authority to command them.
I think that the conch is losing power but not only the conch is losing power. Ralph , the person who holds the conch, is also losing power. The kids are not obeying Ralph's dreadful rules and when they do they always do it unwillingly.
Reply to Diane: I think Jack went onto the rocks with Ralph because he cared. “You’re a hunter.” Jack went red. “I know. All right” Something deep in Ralph spoke for him. “I’m chief. I’ll go. Don’t argue.”(104) This quote shows that Jack still thinks Ralph as the chief and will listen when the circumstances are reasonable. He was not trying to get a share of leadership authority when he followed Ralph. He was caring for him because he thought he might need help from a hunter. I do think though that this may foreshadow the two boys becoming great partners that would work together to lead the group without conflict in the later parts of the book.
Robert: Piggy seems to be still very reasonable and not forgetting or disregarding the rules set. Perhaps he's forgotten because of the carelessness of others, such as Jack. Also, what he says: 'How about us, Ralph?' sounds rather frantic, like he's afraid - which sometimes makes people talk faster and out of turn.
Adam: I think it was the dead parachute guy. A pig probably wouldn't make them scream and run down the hill like they are. And why would the author narrate about the guy falling onto the island if it was for no use?
James: If it was asthma attack, the littluns would be very frighten, not knowing what to do. Percival might just cry, and Piggy will have to comfort Percival with is asthma going on.
What is happening to Piggy and the littleuns? It seems they are being pushed further and further away from the group, being told to stay on the beach. Also, the littleuns seem to be an expendable part of the group, not important, as shown when Jack snaps, “Sucks to the littleuns!” (pg. 101) It seems that no one but Ralph cares about what happens to them anymore, and if they get eaten or lost, it’s fine.
Diane: I think Jack just wants to make sure the boys don't look only up to Ralph. He wants a share, if not all, of the power, so he uses caring as an excuse to become one of the leaders.
James,
It probably is an asthma attack. The little one are scared of the beast, so they really wouldn’t go running all over the place, even Piggy is scared. When Jack, Ralph and the hunter go hunting for the beast, leaving Piggy and the other kids, it might dangerous for the littluns. Piggy is no use for the hunt and they can’t bring the littluns along, but I think it’s not smart to leave Piggy by himself, as he is half blinded and wouldn’t be able to protect himself or the other children. They should leave a few hunters to protect Piggy and the littluns.
“’Someone’s got to look after them.’
‘Nobody has so far.’
‘There was no need! Now there is. Piggy’ll look after them.’”
“’I mean… how about us? Suppose the beast comes when you’re all away. I can’t see proper, and if I get scared…’” pg. 101
In this chapter, Ralph's power disappears and Jack's strengthens. In previous chapters, Jack still has a respect for Ralph, but in this chapter it seems like he doesn't have any. When Jack asks Ralph "frightened?" in front of everyone, showing that he is starting to have authority over Ralph. I think that the beast is starting to scare not only the little boys but also the bigger boys. The search for the beast seems to bring Ralph and Jack back together a little, until Ralph shouts that they are looking for the beast, not playing.
I was wondering if the small conversation about "Waxy" between Sam and Eric in the beginning of the chapter meant anything? ...or not? "/
Response
I think the children are still very immature, and unable to recognize things; they still live in their childish world even though they are stranded on an island. They argue amongst themselves, and only two of them have the sense to know the importance of the process of getting rescued- keeping the fire; they ignore the sensible rules, like where the lavatory is, how to maintain the water supply, and other simple, civilized actions.
Perhaps it may be that they ignore the rules because they are turning savage, but even in the beginning, they didn’t understand the importance of human lives. The author only briefly touches on the death of the boy with the scarred face, which conveys a feeling that the children don’t care much for his death, either. Neither do they understand the significance of staying together to survive- they purposely eschew Piggy from the very beginning, even though they knew that he was the one who came up with the bright ideas.
Also, they have a very childish outlook on things; when Piggy is obviously suffering from asthma, the children do little to help him. Indeed, it seems as if they don’t even know his life is in danger:
“The silence grew oppressive and Piggy help his breath…Piggy let out his breath with a gasp, reached for it again and failed. He lay against a log, his mouth gaping, blue shadows creeping round his lips…After they had eaten, the biguns set out along the beach. They left Piggy propped up on the platform.”
It seems to me that Piggy has an asthma attack. However, the children don’t show an ounce of concern over him, and simply leave him to “watch over the littluns”. How can he keep watch if he has an asthma attack, and is probably unconscious? It is possible that they don’t know the symptoms of asthma. Indeed, it seems that Ralph doesn’t even know what it is, for in the first chapter, when Piggy and Ralph first met, Piggy had tried to tell Ralph that he could run because he had asthma, and Ralph had replied, “Ass-mar?” Also, a few pages later, Ralph had laughed, “Sucks to your ass-mar!” to Piggy, which gives off the feeling that he didn’t know what asthma was.
Maybe the children do not know the dangers of an asthma attack, but even so, they can at least show some concern to Piggy, as anyone would show to someone who was turning blue, could not move, and was probably unconscious. Why don’t they feel concern? Is it because it’s Piggy, and therefore whatever happens to him is negligible? Or is it simply because they are not mature enough to recognize danger when they see it?
Sean: I think there was a war? Because on page 95, it says, "but there were other loghts in the sky, that moved fast, winked, or went out, though not even a faint popping came down from the battle fought at ten miles' height. But a sign came down form the world of grownups, though at that time there was no child awake to read it. There was a sudden bright explosion and corkscrew trail across the sky.."
uhh, so there was a battle, and the dead parachute man tried to escape, but died, and then landed on the island?
p.s Jenny: I agree with Sean, your responses are all so insightful, I really enjoy reading them!
Elissa,
How does a dead parachute guy chase Sam and Eric down and almost caught them?
Chuni: On p. 108 when it says:
"I'm chief. We've got to make certain. ............." Mutinously, the boys fell silent or muttering. Jack led the way down the rock and across the bridge.
Does this symbolize a sort of submissive stance of Jack towards Ralph? Or would a sort of balanced power? Or is it a power shift? Could this be the beginning of cooperation and mutual respect? If Ralph's order was respected by Jack but the procession was led by Jack. Who held the power at the end of the chapter? Ralph or Jack?
I think this quote means a submissive but grudging attitude of Jack. Jack knew that they needed a smoke and Ralph was still the current leader, but he did not care. He felt that making the fort was most “wizard.” When Jack submitted to Ralph, I do not think he was at all trying to balance the power, but in fact he waits for another chance to topple Ralph. It’s impossible that it is the beginning of cooperation, because Jack and Ralph have completely different values. Jack seems to be obsessed with the present and materialistic things. He does not care if they get rescued, and he just wants meat and fun. Ralph thinks about the future and their rescue, thus he is firm about the smoke. Jack held the power at the end of the chapter, for he led the people. Being a leader is leading the people through anything, anytime, anywhere. Ralph was left behind, and Jack had the power over the other boys.
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My question:
Why is Jack so obsessed with the making of the fort? He does not seem to care for the food for the other boys, and only wanted to make a fort. What does this symbolize? Why is he so materialistic while Ralph looks into the future?
Jenny:
I think the littluns still want to go back home. They always cry and complain about going back home. Whenever they think about their parents they will start to cry. " There's no signal now. Nothing to show.""you're nuts on the signal" Ralph is desperately trying to keep the fire going, showing that Ralph is very desperate to get off. Some people will get affected by Jack they will start to not care about if they go home or not. I think some people still don't like Jack as a leader. While others are just as a barbarian like him so they will follow him. I think in the end of the story, there will be 2 separate groups. One with the leader as Ralph, the other on as Jack.
Question:
Do you think the title of this chapter symbolize anything? "Beast from Air". Does it relate to things that happened to them before?
Adam: I'm pretty sure that it was just their imagination; when they were fleeing, it would have been easy to imagine clinging branches as his touch, and each other's footsteps as the steps of the imaginary beast's
Do you think Jack and Ralph will stay well together for a long time? Or do you think they will become enemies again the next day? I think that they will only be nice to each other for a short amount of time. Probably after two days or so, when they’re out of the cave, they will start remembering that they are competing for the spot again, and Jack will start being mean to Ralph and Piggy.
Adam: on the top of page 96 it says how the figure kind of bowed and sank and bowed again and that it is situated on the mountain, which is where the fire and Samneric are. But when they saw it, "it kind of sat up". about it following, they were either exaggerating, or maybe it was something else?
what is the 'popping of fabric'?
daisy:
i think they only ate before they hunted simply so that they'll have the energy to hunt the beast. and i would only eat if i'm hungry :)
my question:
What is the “Beastie”? Is it real? Does it really exist? Or are the kids just imagining because of fear?
Helen and Jenny: I think that the littluns want to go home too. Percival is always reiterating his telephone number, so he’s which means he might be thinking about home. I agree that a lot of people like Jack over Ralph because Jack is more fun and Ralph is just trying to get off of this island. I think there is a possibility that they will spilt into two groups having Jack as a leader of a group and Ralph as the leader of another group.
Ever since the littleuns have become alarmed by the fact that there is a beast lurking on this island, worries aroused. Because of this, I think their once civilized society has started to shatter. Jack is so arrogant that he doesn’t care about the littleuns and only about hunting. And Ralph is no longer capable of keeping the society organized. Everything is a mess.
“You! What were you mucking about in the dark for?”
Simon grabbed the conch
convulsively.
“I wanted – to go to a place – a place I know.”
“What place?”
“Just a place I know. A place I know in the jungle.”
This section was from chapter five when they were discussing about
the beast a littleun had seen. After reading chapter six, I came across this: Simon mumbled confusedly”I don’t believe in the beast.”Why did Simon suddenly change his mind? Was Simon was concealing something from the rest of the group? Could the place that Ralph thought the beast had lived be the place that Simon knows? Is he trying to get away from horrible things on this island and hide somewhere where he feels safe?
To Angela:
I think when Jack says "Conch! Conch! We don't need the conch any more. We know who ought to say things...", it tells us that Jack no longer wishes to listen to nor obey to Ralph. He somehow wishes to lead his own assembly and overthrow Ralph. It is like he wishes to take over the chief place of Ralph, which he had wanted for a very long time already.
I think this quote that Jack says symbolizes the losing of authority and the losing of the power of the rules. It is like the conch, the rules and authorities, are slowly losing its power and dying. They're dying because it seems like most of the biguns, except Simon and Piggy, are supporting Jack; because he is the only one that would seem to make the most fun out of life, and the only one that would provide them with meat to eat.
Question:
What do you think will happen to the power struggle between Ralph and Jack? Will Jack win because he has meat and will probably lead a funner life; or will Ralph, because he has the most knowledge or survival and with him, they would probably actually get rescued.
In response to KK :
I think that the figure that came down with a parachute was a human, not a beast. This story is set in WWI (or so the back of the book says), and the chances of a plane-wreck pilot falling onto an island isn't impossible. Besides, why would anyone use a parachute, other than trying to escape or disembark from an airborne object?
My Question :
Is the beastie real? Piggy, by far the most sensible and mature member, says no. Jack, the savage, who has been everywhere on the island says no. Most, if not all of the littluns say yes.
Doesn't this bring up an interesting question into your head? Why do most of the biguns not believe in the monster? Is it because they think beasties are just imaginary things that only babies believe in? And why is it that only the littluns see the beastie? All of them live and carry out their daily activities in the same area. But why didn't any of the biguns see the beastie? Coincidence? Or is there more to this?
My Response :
LOTF Chapter 6 Response
More foreshadowing and suspense are added to this chapter, making this chapter one of the most intense ones so far. Other than just a beastie from the sea, one descends from the sky! This one, just like the old one, is a fearsome one. “The circle of boys shrank away in horror. Johnny, yawning still, burst into noisy tears and was slapped by Bill till he choked on them.” It isn’t much when the little kids cry because they do it often, but it’s something when even a bigun gets scared.
“‘Frightened?’ ‘’Course I’m frightened. Who wouldn’t be?’” This come from Ralph, our leader. Even when the leader of a group, which should be the bravest have worries, then something big is happening. Other than bringing up the question of – “Is there really a monster? Is something real or were the kids just drowsy when they claimed they saw the beastie, when really, they were hallucinating.", this quote also shows a further collapse in Ralph’s leadership. Jack can openly insult Ralph now. This is a further step down Ralph’s road of losing his leadership abilities and role as a leader.
So the question now is – are those beasties real? Or are the kids just scared of being stranded on an island? Personally, I think there aren’t any real monsters that are lurking under the water and wandering in the woods. Why? Because Piggy says so. Piggy, by far is the most sensible and mature member of their group. He has been right about everything so far even though most of the people don’t want to admit it. In Chapter 6, it makes sense when he is the only bigun that is left behind while the others are out, searching for the beastie.
Then again, the beastie might be there. It might just be a hallucination if one of the littluns claim that there is a beastie, but if quite a few of them claim they’ve seen it, then it might be true.
In Chapter 5, I thought the monster might be real because although Jack has been all over the island, Percival says he saw the beastie come out from the sea. Jack hasn’t been everywhere under the sea and one of the boys says “"Daddy said they haven't found all the animals in the sea yet." That left me with doubt, but after reading Chapter 6, and learning that there’s also a land monster, I was certain this creature was real.
But then if u think about it, how come only the little kids see the monster. The biguns and littluns all live in the same place and although they might have some different activities during the day, the are pretty much in the same area. Why is it always so coincidental that only the little kids see the monsters? Or maybe its not a coincidence. Maybe the monster only likes little kids, although I highly doubt this option.
So, my thoughts about this mysterious beastie is that it’s fake. There is not a beastie and as much as I don’t like Jack, I agree with him and Piggy.
James,
(Is this an asthma attack? If it is, what might happen to the littluns now that the bigguns are not around? What might happen to Piggy?)
I think it is ironic how Piggy cannot take care of himself, yet he also has to watch the littluns. That puts both him and the littluns in danger because there is no one responsible and physically fit enough to care for them.
However, I think what Golding is trying to emphasize with the quote "Piggy let out his breath with a gasp, reached out for it again and failed. He lay against a log, his mouth gaping, blue shadows creeping round his lips. Nobody minded him." is not his asthma, but the fact that everyone ignored it. It seems as if no one, with the possible exception of Ralph, respected Piggy anymore. It shows that the "value" of Ralph's supporters was dropping and soon Ralph would be on his own.
Through this chapter, I found out something, and which I think the children are also confused about. Why isn’t the beast being more specific? Why didn’t the author try to describe it, instead of letting the children, who sees it, describe? Or maybe he is just trying to make the story more interesting by this. So why? What’s the reason?
“’Course I’m frightened. Who wouldn't be?” – Jack, page 100
Isn’t he the one who said there aren’t any beasts? And that time he was so confident and he was very sure that there aren’t any beasts in the forest. However, now, he is scared? Yes, maybe they all are scared, but when this haven’t happen yet, Jack was the one who doesn't look scared of it. It also shows us that Ralph is braver and more like a chief than Jack.
“Sucks to the littluns!” – Jack, page 101
It shows that he doesn't care about them that much, and also shows that he wouldn't be a good chief.
In this chapter, we can see that the children’s fear is getting larger and larger. Not only the littuns, but also Jack, and even Ralph. So it shows that even though you look very tough and strong, but there must be something that you are afraid of. The fear is not a physical thing, but the way that they think about the fear.
Carol~Do you think Jack and Ralph will stay well together for a long time? Or do you think they will become enemies again the next day?
Yes, I agree with what you said. And I don't think they'll ever get along well ever. Jack's selfish attitude will probably stay the same.
Is this problem of the beast would make them want to go back home? The monster in the island had confused them. This had divided them to different groups. If they don’t stand together they would never going to solve the monster. The rules are has extremely weakened. The conch is not useful. It seemed that they all were now wanted to do the ways what they wanted to do. I think the narrator wanted the readers to know the challenge of not letting us know the real things was happening. He wanted to let us know that everything had to discover by ourselves.
"By custom now one conch did for both twins, for their substantial unity was recognized.
'It was a furry. There was something moving behing its head--wings. The best moved too--'
'That was awful. It kind of sat up--'
'The fire was bright--'
'more sticks on--' . . ."
Why do the twins act as one person? They think the same and are always together.
Helen:
Ironically, Chapter Six begins the official commencement of the Beast myth among the boys. While some litt'uns said that they had seen it, all the big'uns were in disbelief. Now, the twins have spoken.
The "beast" was, in actuality, only a pilot who got shot out of a furious dogfight the night before. Unfortunately, he did not live to tell the tale, and recieved quite a posthumous beating being dragged UP the mountain by his parachute. His final resting position made his head move whenever the wind blew into his chute's canopy. His body may have been noticed, but his ragged countenance, and seeing it MOVING, scared the wits out of the twins.
So hence the title of Chapter Six.
Elissa:
The popping of fabric is the parachute!!!
My question: If they had realized that it was just a corpse, what would have happened?
Liang: As the older people get, people start relying on facts instead of what's unreal. The littluns fell insecure and think that there's some monster out there in the forest. The monster could be just an animal that happens to look scary.
In Chapter 6, things start to change between Jack and Ralph. When the beastie topic was brought up again, we can see the differences between Jack and Ralph’s personality. Jack said, “Sucks to the littluns.” However Ralph cares more of the littluns and wants to protect them from danger. Ralph becomes more dominant and shows his leadership out at the woods. Even though Ralph denies the existence of the beastie, however the littluns’ eyewitnesses somewhat affects his view. Although Ralph has a chance of dying, he is audacious and remains composure because he is the chief, he has to make sure the island is safe. Pg 104 Something deep in Ralph spoke for him. “I’m chief. I’ll go. Don’t argue.” He turned to others. “You. Hide here. Wait for me.” In his actions, we finally realize that Ralph is actually a more capable leader than Jack. Jack just wants to hunt and have fun, however Ralph considers the future of getting rescued and building huts for shelter.
Question: Jack had already let the fire out one time. Just as they returned from hunting the beastie, Ralph was suddenly panicking, because he saw no smoke on the mountains. What is happening? What does this foreshadow? Are they going to get rescued? Or is the fire related to the beastie?
ROBERT:
No, I don’t think Piggy is becoming a savage. Piggy is probably the only one that hasn’t changed as much. He is the only one that actually thinks about being rescued, besides Ralph.
I think that the conch is losing its power. The boys are also dehumanizing, which is probably the reason why there is a lack of organization in the meetings. In the past few chapters, the boys are starting to interrupt the person with the conch. This is an example of the conch losing power. “I got the conch!” said Piggy indignantly. ‘“ Ralph they ought to shut up, oughtn’t they? You shut up you littluns!”’
The conch has not completely lost its power yet. It is still used as the tool to call assemblies and keep the meetings organized. ‘“You haven’t got the conch,” he said. “Sit down.” Jack’s face went so white that the freckles showed as clear, brown flecks.’(102)
A contrast can be seen between the meetings in the earlier part of the story, and the meetings now. Every cooperated with the rule that only the person with the conch can talk, but that rule is starting to disappear over time.
---------------
"Let's have a fort"
"There's no food here," said Ralph, " and no shelter. not much fresh water."
"This would make a wizard fort"(108)
All of the boys seem to be interested in the place, do you think that the boys will move there later?
(kimi) : the beast isn’t really something the children can agree on. To different people, based on their different personalities and thought processes, the beast is more like each persons’ worst fear given a name and represented however the person feels. For example, Percival saw the beast as a large, “snakey-like” monster, while Sameric, alone at night in the dark (doing sentry duty…-_-) saw a beast as “it was furry. There was something moving behind its head-wings…” This is very different from the littleun’s descriptions, or Simon’s (accurate) belief that the beast was an internal mental problem the kids faced- “What I mean is…maybe it’s only us.”
By letting the children describe this mysterious, frightening beast, it maintains a sense of suspense and curiosity at what this monstrous “beastie” really is. You are also able to sense the boys’ immense fear at this unknown threat, and as they stay longer on the island, their combined imagination leads them to invent something out of their worst nightmare, which serves fuel their horror even more. By not telling us what the beast is, the writer lets the reader (us) wonder if there truly is a beast, and this keeps us wanting to read more. Also, this leads us to question if the beast really exists, causing the train of thought that finally ends with Simon’s thought that the beast is the wild, uncontrolled side of the boys as they lose their links with the civilized world.
Carol: I think the two will keep alternating between friends and rivals. In terms of just being guys, Jack and Ralph seem to get along perfectly. On the contrary, as Ralph remembers his role as the leader, he can't help but get irritated with the affect Jack is having on the boys.
"Smoke." At once the ideas were back, and the anger. "We want smoke. And you go wasting your time. You roll rocks."
As the tension continues to increase between Ralph and Jack, I think a permanent rivalry might even form between them. They are completely different people. While Ralph is concerned with the welfare of every boy on the island and focuses on truly important problems, Jack, on the other hand, acts with cruelty towards the younger kids and Piggy and is more concerned with hunting.
Why does Piggy put so much emphasis on grownups? Are they truly as perfect as he imagines? Is it correct to say that things really would be better if there were grownups? or would things turn out the same as the boys now?
-Bloodwolf
"Jack was excited.
'What a place for a fort!'"
Do you think Jack will set up a fort on the pink coral despite Ralph's orders? If you think he will, is it possible that Jack's actions would split the group? If not, why do you think so?
Ralph looked at Jack, "You're a hunter."(104)
I noticed how Ralph now is able to balance up with Jack. Ralph said this because
now, it's like he had approve Jack, and Jack's manner and behavior seems better than
before. Not only Ralph had lay out plans, and that he let Jack hunting leader while they
went and search the beast. Ralph now is getting better and better at leading his people,
he learn to deal with people like Jack. Ralph let Jack lead, follows and listen to his leads.
But at times, Ralph had to do something, and not letting Jack taking the full control
of the whole thing. I believe Ralph is trying to share the responsibility with Jack, Ralph,
as the chief and Jack as the hunter.
Posting a question:
How has Jack and Ralph change in this chapter? How has Jack change in his manner toward Ralph?
Reply to Jackie's question: Do you think Jack will set up a fort on the pink coral despite Ralph's orders? If you think he will, is it possible that Jack's actions would split the group? If not, why do you think so?
I think Jack won't go against to Ralph's order yet, because he knows that Ralph had the ability to lead people. In this chapter, Ralph share the leadership with Jack, and you can see that Jack's manner had change a bit. I believe, as long as Ralph keep up with this on Jack, Jack will not go against it.
“Side by side they scaled the last height to where to diminishing pile was crowned by the last broken rock. Jack struck the near one with his fist and grated slightly. ‘Do you remember-?’ Consciousness of the bad times in between came to them both.”
Is it possible that Jack and Ralph will start over and be friends again?
Response: I don’t think that’s possible because Jack wants the position of chief too badly to just let Ralph have it forever. And as long as Ralph is still chief and Jack still wants it, they will never be that close as they first were when they landed on the island. Jack changed; he gave up on rules, which is their connection to the civilized world, something Ralph is really determined to keep.
Ralph and Jack’s personality are almost polar opposites, Ralph treats the younger boys with patience and he actually cares about what they have to say, while Jack doesn’t like anybody who questions his thoughts. For example, Jack doesn’t like Piggy because Piggy doesn’t treat him like a leader, and questions his authoritative. Jack told all the younger kids to shut up and that there were no beasts to worry about, and that if something did get them, they would deserve it. Ralph on the other hand asked the kids where they saw the beast and tried to find a solution for it. And he actually wants to be rescued that’s why he was furious when the hunters let the fire go out.
Diane:
I honestly don't think that Jack cared about Ralph getting eaten or trampled by the "beast". He just wanted to make sure that if there were a beast, he would have taken part in the killing so he could share the glory, and maybe twist the story so he would seem like the hero. Ralph went to look for the beast because he felt like it was a responsibilty the chief should do. Jack went with him because he wanted to be chief. If it were Ralph who killed the beast, all the boys would see Ralph as their chief again, and Jack's chances of having that position would be slim.
What significance in the story does the parachute have? Besides from making Sam and Eric think that it is a beast, why does Golding choose the dead man as the figure? Also, by the last chapter, it is clear that Ralph already lost his power and he knows that. But by this chapter, Ralph still acts like the leader and has the assembly. They also started to regain their friendship when they went exploring. Why?
“There was a sudden bright explosion and corkscrew trail across the sky; then darkness again and stars. There was a speck above the island, a figure dropping swiftly beneath a parachute, a figure that hung with dangling limbs.” - Page 95
As I read chapters four and five, I almost completely forgot that there was a war going on outside. In the beginning of chapter six, the explosion and the parachute tell me that there is still a war going on outside the civilization on the island. The bloody war that is going on involves in a struggle between lands, and has a similar conflict on the island, which is struggle between civilization and savagery.
After Sam and Eric find out about the beast, the first person they go to is Ralph, instead of Jack. I think they do this because they think Ralph is the only one who can solve this problem and Jack only knows how to hunt and nothing else. Ralph tells everyone that they are going to have an assembly, and after the assembly they go search for the beast.
“A sound behind him made him turn. Jack was edging along the ledge.
‘Couldn’t let you do it on your own.’” – Page 106
I think the reason why Ralph is starting to get along with Jack is because Ralph is doing something Jack would rather do. Jack likes hunting and exploring, and Ralph lets the group of hunters go explore the only place they haven’t explored on the island. Even though Ralph wouldn’t do it if there was no beast, he had to do it so then the boys would be sure that there is no beast on the island. Ralph doesn’t know that Jack likes to go around the island. I think that even though their relationship just started to become better a little, they are still going to hate each other later because Jack is becoming more and more into savagery.
Chapter 6 starts off with “There was a sudden bright explosion and corkscrew trail across the sky; then darkness again and stars. There was a speck above the island, a figure dropping swiftly beneath a parachute, a figure that hung with dangling limbs.” I think that the narrator uses “figure” with “dropping swiftly beneath a parachute” and “dangling limbs” make the figure sound like a ghost or monster. I had a bad feeling after I read that section, and it kind of gave me the idea that a monster was going to “jump in” the story (also because in the previous chapters the older boys kept on saying that there aren’t any monsters or beast and when people say that, the opposite happens). The war, which is re-mentioned in this chapter, is still going on. It seems like the war and the problem the boys are facing on the island could be an analogy, because war can be said as a savage outbreak of civilization (because people act like savages when they are in war and usually people have wars to overthrow the civilization) and the problem the boys are facing on the island is also about savage and civilization. I think that after this chapter, the boys will encounter more and more problems about beasts and monsters.
In the beging of chapter 6, what is going on? A paracute? IS it the pilot? are they getting rescued and is he the beast?
““Conch! Conch!” shouted Jack “We don’t need the conch anymore. We know who ought to say things. What good did Simon do speaking or Bill, or Walter? It’s time some people knew they’ve got to keep quiet and leave deciding things to the rest of us.” Ralph could no longer ignore his speech. The blood was hot in his cheeks.”
This shows that Jack is sick of the rules that Ralph have about the conch he thinks that there are people that don’t need to speak that they shouldn’t have the right to participate in the discussion. Jack has stopped respecting certain members of the group especially those who is unequal to him those who is worst than him in physical and mental abilities. Ralph on the other hand even though also does not respect those unequal to him as much as he should at least he still gives them the right to express their opinion and ideas, and believe everyone has the right to speak.
“A sound behind him made him turn. Jack was edging along the edge. “Couldn’t let you do it on your own””
This shows that even though Jack and Ralph does not agree with each other on many occasion they still have respect for each other. Even though Jack had despise the rules that Ralph have and despised Ralph’s ways of doing things he still want to accompany him to what they believed to be danger. This shows that they still respect maybe even admire each other in some way.
To Angela:
I beleive it symbolizes that jack is going to become the leader, or a leader of a party. Because that he wants his word to be the iron rule, just follow the rule i put down and my word is the golden word. Yes and i believe that the conch is losing its authority.
to kimberly: i dont think that the war is on going for the boys. In war, men kill for nothing more than an order. But on the island, no ones an enemy. As to a savage "outbreak," i dont think that the kids on the island are having an OUTBREAK. More like some of them are slowly becoming savage like, but not exactly savages. Also, do you think that they are really going to face "beasts" and "monsters?" or is it more figuritively. As in like, the monster and beasts represent a fear that they have. A fear of the unknown. Did the kids actually see the "beast" from the airs face? No. Do they know for sure what the beastie was(mentioned in earlier chapters.)? No. The unknown, for kids, are a fear.
To Nick: In the beginning of Chapter 6, the war is going on above the boys' heads, but nobody knows because San and Eric are asleep while they were tending the fire, and the warring people don't know about the boys because the fire was dead. The parachute guy was dead and dropped on top of a mountaintop of their small island, in which many boys misinterpret as their imagined "beast" because of its distorted flapping shadows in the darkness, which is coincidentally always the time they try to look for it.
--
Here's my response:
After taking in most of the chapter, and giving the whole chapter a review at SparkNotes, I’ve thought carefully about what I’m really wondering about. After quite a while of thinking, I’ve come down to this question: what is the maturity level of the twins? Though it is suggestible that they are younger than Ralph, they seem to be a little smarter (yet in other places dumber) than Ralph from their behavior, such as knowing to put the fire back on. Sometimes I think they are really immature; they were too scared to go up and investigate what was the cause of the swaying shadow of the dead man. Then again, of course, there was only the light of the fire to light up the place and it was nighttime, where a lot of people get frightened, so…maybe it’s no wonder they freaked out…
Seriously, I think Jack really needs to give it a break. His aggressive attitude and ironically more-and-more savage personality is taking over the boys. His aggressiveness has seemed to also affect those who are innocent, much shown when he says “Sucks to the littluns!” This small quote is really strong, and it can hurt. When it comes to anything wild, he doesn’t just lose control, but also goes wild too and leave mean things here and there, his mind empty to everything else. How pitiful…
--
Simon, walking in front of Ralph, felt a flicker of incredulity—a beast with claws that scratched, that sat on a mountaintop, that left no tracks and yet was not fast enough to catch Samneric. However Simon thought of the picture of a human at once heroic and sick. I thought this quote was significant because Simon realizes something that none of the other children had realized. Simon knows that there is no beast, what they thought was a beast was really a human being. But the part I don’t understand is that why would a human have—“claws that scratched…that left no tracks and yet was not fast enough to catch Samneric.”? And what does it mean by—“a human at once heroic and sick.”?
Sandra:I agree with the part about where you said that Jack is over powering Ralph. Jack challenges Ralph.
my questons
3. How did Castle Rock, Jack’s camp, contrast with Ralph’s camp? How did each reflect the character of its leader?
4. What did the arrival of the dead parachutist suggest about the adult work that the boys had left behind?
"At once the ideas were back, and the anger." p.108
What does this sentence mean that all the ideas were back with anger?
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