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"Fancy thinking the Beast was something you could hunt and kill" (143)!
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96 comments:
On page 112, Ralph is really exited about the hunt. After the chase, he sings, dances with Jack and the hunters. This shows that Ralph is getting closer to the savagery. Is Ralph going to give up for his plan of rescuie and becomes same as Jack?
In response to Haley:
I think that Ralph is still hoping to be rescued. Nevertheless, I think it was his inner desires to kill that drove him into a brief moment of savagery. Additionally, I think he has also been driven from peer pressure to do so. This is because the hunters were so proud of themselves that they actually hunted and killed a pig while Ralph didn't have much to be proud of. This may have led to him trying to "redeem" himself by proving himself a capable hunter. This act also shows how Ralph is starting to succumb to Jack's power. It is imminent that Jack would become the leader someday.
My question:
In the passage by p. 111 the narrator says:
"On the other side of the island, swathed at midday with mirage, defended by the shield of quiet lagoon, one might dream of rescue; but here, faced by the brute obtuseness of the ocean, the miles of division, one was clamped down, one was helpless, one was condemned, one was-"
Is it possible that this passage is trying to symbolize the difference between Jack and Ralph? in what way? Could this be foreshadowing the rise of Jack and some sort of "condemned" rule?
Haley,
"The urge to squeeze and hurt was over-mastering"
Have you ever played Halo or any other shooter/fighter games? Those promote adrenaline, which is really addictive. We all have this trait, although we can say that it is becoming more defined in Ralph's character.
Ironically, it is natural that Jack resort to savagery in an wild environment. As time wears on, everything conforms. Even mountains bow in time.
According to my hypothesis, I don't believe that Ralph has gotten to the point of despair. I am sure, however, that there WILL be a day when Ralph gives up altogether the thought of rescue, although we will never know how long it would take until his brain cracks.
My question:
Oh my gosh, Ralph SAW the pilot, but mistook him for the beast. So now Ralph had just been dealt a debilitating blow--he and Jack now share the same belief. How can Jack use this to his advantage?
QUESTION:
“I hit him! The spear stuck in–” …… “’I hit him,’ said Ralph again, ‘and the spear stuck in a bit.’ He felt the need of witnesses. ‘Didn’t you see me?’”… “I hit him all right. The spear stuck in. I wounded him!”…He sunned himself in their new respect and felt that hunting was good after all….. “’I hit him.’ said Ralph indignantly. ‘I hit him with my spear, I wounded him’”.
Why would Ralph be so proud of wounding the creature?
"Robert snarled at him. Ralph entered into the play and everybody laughed. Presently they were all jabbing at RObert who made mock rushes."
They seemed to have gone too far. They forgot that they were playing a game and they tried to kill Robert as if he was a pig. Even Ralph wanted to hurt him. Then they realized it was only a game. What does this foreshadow? How come Ralph had "the desire to squeeze and hurt?" What is the significance of this?
Weifan: Oh my gosh, Ralph SAW the pilot, but mistook him for the beast. So now Ralph had just been dealt a debilitating blow--he and Jack now share the same belief. How can Jack use this to his advantage?
My question back is: does Jack know that he has an advantage?
Let’s say Jack does know that he has an advantage, but then what use does he have for it? Ralph already questions his own authority; only persuasion from Piggy and Simon convinced to stay as the chief. Ralph did not blow the conch, in fear that the children would not listen to him. Doesn’t that show that Jack has already won, or at least, it shows that Jack has not lost? Ralph is basically already defeated, because he can no longer enjoy the position as chief with assurance that the children will listen to him; even if his commands are for their wellbeing, they may not see it clearly, and they might revolt against his leadership. However, there’s still the final step for Jack to take in order for him to have all the authority- he has to crush and stomp down Ralph. There has to be a finalizing action that shows clear transfer of power from Ralph to Jack.
How is sharing the same belief of the existence of the beast give Jack an advantage? If nothing else, it can only put the two of them back on the same level- they had both protested clearly that there was no such thing as the beast. Even if Ralph was mistaken, he had believed what he thought, and Jack was also convinced. They’ve both been dealt equal devastating blows, so to speak.
“’You want real pig,’ said Robert, still caressing his rump, ‘because you’ve got to kill him.’ ‘Use a littlun,’ said Jack, and everyone laughed.” pg .115
It seems to me that the littluns are treated as a nuisance. The Jack clearly says that the littleuns are just fun and good to kill. The question is that are the littleuns going to be respected anymore? Or are they going to be bullied and tortured for the fun of Jack?
K.K. I think that Ralp is so proud of wounding the boar because he wants to prove to the others that he can not only be chief and help but also hunt like Jack, so he is svery way equal and better than the Jack they so look up to.
It was dark, so when Ralph, Jack, and Roger saw the dead pilot, they probably couldn't see clearly.
weifan-
Obviously Jack has been trying to humiliate and denounce Ralph in any way he can in order to gain power. Though Jack and Roger both ran from the supposed 'beast' as well. Do you really think he can use that against Ralph, if they all had run? I mean, if Ralph had run off all by himself, Jack would surely use that against him - calling him a coward and telling the whole island of people. But because all three of them had run cowardly back, I doubt Jack has the ability to use Ralph's flight from the mountain and the "beast" against him.
KK - I think Ralph is so proud because he wants to show that he's brave and a hunter too. He saw how much applause and complimenting Jack and the hunters got from the first pig. He wants to be applauded and complimented and heroic as well, and that can be taken from wounding and hunting down a pig. He is desperate for the attention and power. :D
Also, pighunting is satisfying - the way people play videogames, but it's the real thing. From media and such, you learn that killing is cool (subconsciously) and there is a rush of excitement and satisfaction when you hit the target. It also relieves stress, pressure, when you put it into something else. :)
Simon is positive that Ralph will get back eventually. What does his 'get back to where you came from' mean? Does it only mean returning to England? Is there more to that - per say, back to his naive twelve-year-old ways or something?
Also, Roger - he seems quiet and the like. The book mainly covers the personalities of Ralph, Jack, and Piggy. Roger seems like a more obscure character. Why is he volunteering for this expedition? Jack and Ralph sometimes are surprised when they hear him say something on the expedition up the mountain. We know he's somewhat just like the rest of them - he flees from the 'beast' too, but what is different about him? The others say they aren't pursuing the expedition because "they are tired". What makes Roger so different? Why do you think Golding made not only Jack and Ralph go up the mountain? Is it the significance of Roger's personality or just to add an extra character climbing up the mountain?
In the beginning of this chapter Golding shows the readers that Ralph is starting to reflect upon himself by telling us that he notice he needs to refresh himself by cutting his grey long hair and taking a bath. Is this a sign of Ralph being confident again and is ready to become a better leader with the help of Piggy and Simon?
In page 113: Ralph says…
“I hit him! The spear stuck in-”
This quote shows that Ralph is beginning to become savage and lets the readers to doubt if he is going to turn like Jack. But I think Ralph will not turn savage because Golding gives evidence that although Ralph may temporary fall into the savagery of what Jack creates, he still worries about Piggy and whatever decisions he makes now, he would consider it like playing chess, meaning thinking carefully about it. “We can’t leave the littluns alone with Piggy. Not all night” shows the evidence.
When Jack says: “You haven’t got Piggy’s specs, so you can’t” on page 115, this shows how Jack also knows that they do depend on Piggy, but he does not want to accept the truth that Piggy is smart and has good reasons when he talks during meetings.
RESPONSE:
First of all, the creature was a boar, different from the much weaker pigs found on the island. Ralph reiterated he killed the boar over and over again because wounding the boar symbolizes more respect from the children and authority. He tried to convince the children that he was more skilled than Jack. Jack, who was the best at hunting, did not injure the boar at all so he loses some of his original power over the children. In the moment the children witnessed the wounding of the boar, the children, I believe, were impressed. Ralph, who was losing his power to Jack, regained it again by this. Lastly, this quote indirectly characterizes Ralph’s arrogance and pride.
Robert: It foreshadows that one of the characters in the story may be killed because of their "ritual". When people were invovled in the ritual, they tend to let go of their senses.
Doris: The last action Jack needs to take in order to have full power is killing Ralph with his OWN hands.
In the first page of the chapter showed how clean is Ralph want to be. He want to have a nice civilized people surround him. But it seems that the other boys are dirty and savageries. Although he hates to be dirty, on page 112-113 he hunts with the hunters in the island. At first he is afraid of hunting, but because he want to bring back his leadership, so he start to gang in the group of the hunters. My question is Ralph going to have his power back? Is he going to be
Albert : The littluns are becoming less important, they are losing their identity and their spot in the group. Many of the older ones are finding them annoying because they can’t do much and they are extra mouths to feed. They are becoming really expendable by the older kids because they see no usage in them. They have lost their respect of the older kids, except for Piggy that cares for them when the older ones leave for an expedition or a hunting trip. I don’t think that Jack finds torturing and bullying the littluns fun yet because Ralph is restraining him for doing that. Ralph and Piggy are keeping the peace between the older kids and the littluns. But now, even Ralph laughed when they mentioned about killing the littluns. “Use a littlun,” said Jack, and everybody laughed.” Ralph seems to be becoming more savage and has crossed his own line. He also finds the littluns expendable at this very moment. But I don’t believe that Ralph really knew why he was laughing. He has respect for everybody on the island, no matter what the age group was.
Are the kids becoming more svage than ever because on pg 114-117, they are starting to play savage games. Roger was screaming in real pain at one point when they pretended that he as a pig. Do you think the game went a bit too far? Also, how is this symbolizing that they are becoming more savage?
Quote: (page 114)
Robert snarled at him. Ralph entered into the play and everybody laughed. Presently they were all jabbing at Robert who made mock rushes.
Jack shouted. “Make a ring!”
The circle moved in and round. Robert squealed in mock terror, then in real pain. “Ow! Stop it! You’re hurting!”
The butt end of a spear fell on his back as he blundered among them.
“Hold him!”
They got his arms and legs. Ralph, carried away by a sudden thick excitement, grabbed Eric’s spear and jabbed at Robert with it.
“Kill him! Kill him!”
All at once, Robert was screaming and struggling with the strength of frenzy. Jack had him by the hair and was brandishing his knife. Behind him was Roger, fighting to get close. The chant rose ritually, as the last moment of a dance or a hunt.
“Kill the pig! Cut his throat! Kill the pig! Bash him in!”
This part of the story was very strange to me. Ralph, the sensible and civilized one, had joined the fray in a bloody game. They boys had hunted Robert and hurt him, and did not stop. This “game” almost turned out to be the funeral of Robert. Why had the boys attacked Robert despite his cries to stop? What happened during the time? What does this symbolize?
I think the boys had been controlled by a bloodlust. They had just wounded the boar, and they were excited by the sight of blood. Ralph, who had thrown the spear to wound the boar, joined in the game and had injured Robert with Eric’s spear. Why was he doing this? We all know that up till now, Ralph was civilized and did not take part in savage games. However, he was compelled to injure Robert by some strange force. “Ralph too was fighting to get near, to get a handful of that brown, vulnerable flesh. The desire to squeeze and hurt was over-mastering.” (114-115)
I think this passage symbolizes the real downfall of the democracy. Ralph, the leader that had been holding the democracy together, had just felt that hunting was fun. “He sunned himself in their new respect and felt that hunting was good after all.” (Ralph, page 113) The game symbolizes the children’s wildness and savagery, and it wouldn’t be long before they began to play the “game” for real.
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Question
(Page 115) “You want a real pig,” said Robert, still caressing his rump, “because you’ve got to kill him.”
“Use a littleun,” said Jack, and everybody laughed.
What does this symbolize? Is Jack really thinking to kill a littleun? What does this show of his thoughts about the littleuns? Everybody laughs along with Jack. Are they are savages as well?
What is the significance of Simon's comment on page 121-"I think you'll get back all right"? He sounds so sure and keeps repeating it over and over again, even though no one believes him. Does he know something the others don't, or is he just crazy/delirious from the heat?
Weifan: Well, none of them know it's the pilot, so they all share the same fear right now. However, if either of them figures out the truth, they might be able to use this to their advantage by threatening the other, or asking them to be followers in exchange for eliminating the "beast."
Fernando:
I think Ralph is going to take his power back, but only after he can prove to other litluns and hunters that to be rescuied, and get civilized is more important than hunting.
Frank:
“All at once, Robert was screaming and struggling with the strength of frenzy. Jack had him by the hair and was brandishing his knife.
I think that it has gone too far, they are getting more barbaric everyday. At first they only wanted to hunt, then they started to paint their faces, and now they hurt their own people. This probably foreshadows someone getting killed in the later chapters.
They became so excited and they thought Robert was a pig and they had completely lost control of themselves. Their savageness has taken control of them. Thankfully, they realized that the person that they were going to kill was Robert.
"They got his arms and legs. Ralph, carried away by a sudden think excitement, grabbed Eric's spear and jabbed at Robert with it. 'Kill him! Kill him!' Al at once, Robert was screaming and stuggling with the strength of frenzy. Jack had him by the hair and was brandishing his knife. Behind him was Roger, fighting to get close. The change rose ritually, as at the last moment of a dance or a hunt. 'Kill the pig! Cut his throat!Kill the pig!< Bash him in!' Ralph too was fighting to get near, to get a handful of that brown, vulnerable flesh. The desire to sqeeze and hurt was over-mastering.
-----------------------------------
For a moment, it seemed like Ralph was turning savage, his want to hurt. Is it possible that Ralph is turning savage, because he had tasted the thrill of hunting?
KK: I think Ralph was proud because he was in a group of hunters, and wounding a pig made him fit it. He was losing the respect of the boys, especially the hunters because it had seemed like all he cared about were rules and the fire, but maybe he had thought that wounding the pig would have won some respect back.
He sunned himself in their new respect and felt that hunting was good after all The hunting gave him the feeling of adrenaline, and maybe he had liked it.
Why was Jack talking bitterly why they were trying to get people up the mountain? The beast was like a great ape? Three sticks whats that for and is the beast really fond?
To Kristin Kiang:
while i believe that when he hit the boar, he was excited because of the respect Jack got just from killing a pig that time. He wanted to gain the respect and fight against Jack.
Chuni
"On the other side of the island, swathed at midday with mirage, defended by the shield of quiet lagoon, one might dream of rescue; but here, faced by the brute obtuseness of the ocean, the miles of division, one was clamped down, one was helpless, one was condemned, one was-"
Is it possible that this passage is trying to symbolize the difference between Jack and Ralph? in what way? Could this be foreshadowing the rise of Jack and some sort of "condemned" rule?
I do not think this passage symbolizes the differences between Jack and Ralph. The purpose of it is to show readers how Ralph must have felt, that the clear blue ocean was a near-impenetrable barrier that he could not overcome on his own. It seems as if he was slowing losing hope of rescue and he now realized that maybe he would have to live with Jack and the rebels forever.
Now that I think of it, maybe it does have some reference to the conflict between Jack and Ralph. Ralph desperately wanted to leave the island, but Jack wanted to stay. The ocean was confining him to the island, and Jack was trapping him so he would give up his leadership. And in another sense, Jack was “clamping down” Ralph with his savagery and maybe Ralph would succumb to it.
KK: I think Ralph is trying to prove that he is a good leader and that he can also hunt, not just Jack. And since Ralph has never hunted before, maybe he was just trying to see if he could hit it, and he did. So maybe that’s why he’s so excited when he hit it.
Weifan: Jack was already trying to be leader already; maybe he won’t use the advantage because he knows that he has more power than Jack. Even though with this advantage, Ralph might get back at him maybe do something like this to get his power back.
But I also think, Jack doesn’t notice that he has an advantage, because if he did he would already try saying or doing something to get the power according to his personality.
Bess: I don’t think it’s possible for Ralph to turn into a savage; he might think it’s fun, but based on his personality he knows what is right and what is wrong. Maybe he will hunt for fun, but I think he will still know what is important.
Frank:
I think that the game went way too far because Jack and the group couldn’t stop. They were so excited and into the game that they didn’t even notice that it’s just a game. When I read this chapter I thought that Ralph will stop them from hurting Robert, because Ralph symbolizes civilization in the book.
“They got his arms and legs. Ralph, carried away by a sudden think excitement, grabbed Eric’s spear and jabbed at Robert with it.” – Page 114
Ralph doesn’t stop the boys from throwing spears at Robert; he keeps on playing the game until they see Robert crawling on the floor and realize that he is a human. I think that this scene tells us that no matter how much people are towards civilization there is still savagery inside them. When people are given the chance to fight and kill they cannot always stop themselves from savagery.
Although Ralph knows it is better to hunt the beast in the daytime, why does he go with Jack and Roger during the night? If they went in the daytime they would see the parachute and the dead body, but they didn't.
HALEY:
On page 112, Ralph is really exited about the hunt. After the chase, he sings, dances with Jack and the hunters. This shows that Ralph is getting closer to the savagery. Is Ralph going to give up for his plan of rescue and becomes same as Jack?
Deep down, Jack still wants to be rescued. That's why he kept daydreaming while he was walking up the mountain with the group. He started daydreaming about when he was back home and there were good times. He had a warm home and had many things to play with. He still reminisces the past so he still hopes to get rescued.
But in some ways he is becoming more like Jack. When they were hunting the wild pig, Ralph was immediately caught up by the savagery of the group. Even when he barely hit the pig with his spear, he becomes all excited, "I hit him, and the spear stuck in a bit." All this time, Ralph has tried to not be like Jack, he tried not to become like a savage. But after months on the island, he finally gave in to the savage ways. I don't think he wants to be like Jack, but he just has no choice.
In chapter 6, Ralph changes a little. On page 113, Ralph keeps saying that he stuck the spear in the board. He sounds excited and very much like when Jack when Jack first killed a pig. This makes me wonder if Ralph is becoming like Jack, because he sounded like he enjoyed the hunting. This surprised me because earlier in the novel, Ralph didn't get why the boys were so into hunting, and was frustrated that all they did was hunting. And when Ralph kept talking about how he hit the boar, the book said that "he tried for their attention," it makes Ralph sound like he is trying to impress everyone. This shows that Jack's victory, because he now even Ralph was hunting with him. Afterward, Ralph asks Jack, "why don't you go? Are you frightened?", I think that Ralph is trying to fight back at Jack. And in the end of the chapter, Jack whispered to Ralph, "scared?" The two characters keep questioning each other in a mocking way if they are frightened, and this shows them fighting for power.
Does Ralph change in this chapter? If yes then how and why?
Do you think accepting Jack's challenge is a considered as smart or stupid?p.188,189
In this chapter, it seems that Jack is nicer, what is he thinking about?
What do you think Simon is saying when he said," No, I'm not. I just think you'll get back all right."
Haley: Ralph's reaction doesn't have to mean savagery, I think that it was just happiness of success. it happen whenever people succeeded, just like how you feel when you get 100 on your test.
Bess: For a moment, it seemed like Ralph was turning savage, his want to hurt. Is it possible that Ralph is turning savage, because he had tasted the thrill of hunting?
Respond: Ralph was certainly proud when he was hunting but i beleive that he is not going to turn savage like Jack because he does care about Piigy and the rest which shows that he is still acting like a leader and thinks thhings thoroughly before acting. I think Ralph knows what he is doing, maybe the hunting is something that he enjoys,but he is not obsessed like Jack is
What do you think made Ralph choose to hunt? Obviously, he never hunted before and he doesn’t know how it goes, but do you think it might be because of the competition going on with Jack for the spot? Or do you think that Ralph just wants to try it? Is Jack giving him pressure?
Sandra: Ralph changes a bit, and as you said he does sound excited just like Jack when he first caught the pig. But I think he didn’t change in personality, but in thinking. I think he realizes more, why Jack and the others are so into hunting.
kk:
I think Ralph isn't actually that proud of wounding the boar, he only wanted to prove to Jack and the other boys that he can also hunt. He wanted to prove this most likely because everyone is paying so much attention to Jack because HE can hunt, and Ralph just wants the attention back.
My question:
"The circle moved in and around. Robert squealed in mock terror, then in real pain. 'Ow! Stop it! You're hurting!' The butt end of the spear fell on his back as he blundered among them. 'Hold him!' Ralph, carried away by a sudden thick excitement, grabbed Eric's spear and jabbed at Robert with it. 'Kill him! Kill him!'"
Why did they wound Robert? Did they really forget that he's a human being? Why did Ralph all of the sudden became so animal-like?
Mathew:
From the beginning of the story you could tell Jack never cared about the littuns. By making fun of them, not letting them to participate in things, or just use them for jokes. I think Jack would actually kill the littuns, it wouldn't hurt if he killed one. He might even kill one for fun. When he said "use a littun" it shows that he would actually kill one for the fun of it. Almost all the big kids think the littuns are a nuisance, they always torment the littuns. Never helping them, laughing at their behavior, making fun of them, and most importantly not caring one bit about what happens to them or what they do. I think even Ralph has some sides to him that is barbarian, when they lost control while "playing" with Robert, Ralph was apart of it to. When he laughs about using the littuns as a fake boar, shows another side of him as a savage.
Question:
Do you think Ralph has already become a savage? Or is he going to turn into one soon? Or do u think he will still stay the same?
“Simon pushed his way to Ralph’s elbow.
‘I’ll go if you like. I don’t mind, honestly.’
Before Ralph had time to reply, he smiled quickly, turned, and climbed into the forest.” pg. 117
Simon seems to know things others don’t. He went into the forest by himself without being asked and doesn’t seem to be scared. Why is that? Also, why does Simon like Ralph so much?
Robert:
I think the boys went too far because the line between savagery and their former selves is getting thinner and thinner. Every kid had gotten excited about the pig-run, even Ralph. And this excitement continued to the game where Ralph had urges to be savage. This shows how just about everyone is being affected by being here on the island. Ralph's urge to squeeze and hurt shows that even Ralph has been affected by this blood lust. The kids have a desire to kill and forgot it was a game when attacking Robert.
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In previous chapters, Golding never bothered to mention weather, but why in this chapter, did he emphasize the heat?
““I hit him,” said Ralph again, “and the spear stuck in a bit.” He felt the need of witnesses. “Didn’t you see me?” … Ralph talked on, excitedly. “I hit him all right. The spear stuck in. I wounded him!” He sunned himself in their new respect and felt that hunting was good after all. (113)”
“Ralph, carried away by a sudden thick excitement, grabbed Eric’s spear and jabbed at Robert with it… Ralph too was fighting to get near, to get a handful of that brown, vulnerable flesh. The desire to squeeze and hurt was over-mastering. (114)”
What's Ralph doing? Hasn’t he always been the steady advocate for reason and rationality? Now here, he's falling slightly to Jack's vicious ways with the hunting and desire to hurt. I think he simply threw the spear to try it out, to see if he could really hit the pig. “Ralph found he was able to measure the distance coldly and take aim. With the boar only five yards away, he flung the foolish wooden stick that he carried (113)” Then his pride and want for acceptance takes over. Ralph wanted to prove that he was just as good as Jack, since there’s the power play and Jack is constantly questioning Ralph’s authority. Then in the midst of excitement, the primitive human desires of human nature, takes over.
““I hit him,” said Ralph again, “and the spear stuck in a bit.” He felt the need of witnesses. “Didn’t you see me?” … Ralph talked on, excitedly. “I hit him,” said Ralph indignantly. “I hit him with my spear, I wounded him.” He tried for their attention. “He was coming along the path. I threw, like this – (114)”” Was he striving to be accepted? Was he trying to prove his power by repeating it over and over again?
After reading this chapter I thought this is like the character turning point of the story—Jack and Ralph switched their personalities around. This chapter starts out when Ralph was thinking how the ocean is like a barrier from being rescued—“This was a divider, the barrier…one might dream of rescue; but here, faced by the brute obtuseness of the ocean, the miles of division, one was clamped down, one was helpless, one was condemned, one was—.” But later on the children start on a pig hunt, and this is where Ralph changes. He gets his first taste of hunting and is so excited and happy that he wounded the pig, he acts just like Jack—Ralph was full of fright and apprehension and pride—he tried for their attention. Ralph feels so proud that he keeps wanting to retell the story. But unlike Ralph, in this chapter we could see Jack’s weaknesses and powerless self—Then Jack found them, and was shivering and croaking…For the first time since he had known Jack, Ralph could feel him hesitate.
Bess, he would not become a savage, because he has Piggy beside him. Ralph relies on Piggy a lot, and respects him. He would listen to Piggy's thoughts. I think he is proud because he did something that everyone liked, and didn't have any objections. It seemed as if he really was leading the people.
I think it is possible that he will turn into a savage, becuase I think savagery is one of human's instincts, just like civilization.This chapter shows Ralph's immaturity, because he was hungry for power.
My question: is jack using this situation to gain more power?
Jack increases his leverage within the group by goading Ralph into acting rashly and unwisely. Ralph accepted the challenge to hunt at night because if he refused it, he would be considered a coward. So he did accept the challenge. By this point, the conflict between Ralph and Jack has escalated to a real struggle for power, as Jack's brand of violence and savagery almost completely replaces Ralph's disciplined community in the boys' conception of their lives on the island. So my question is, will the feud continue? will they end up killing each other?
Albert~
I think that the littluns are kind of a burden to the bigger kids now. No one really cares about them, especially Jack. So i think they might stay being tortured by Jack.
haley: i don't think so
i mean, Ralph's still trying to keep them in order. He just doesn't want jack to take over
Carol: I think that Ralph needs to go hunting now. It's like he had to have a meeting or else he would lose his power. Ralph doesn't really seem like the person that would be fighting for a spot, but maybe deep down, he wants to be leader, and it is shown from some parts of the novel. And of course, Jack is giving him pressure. Jack is also maturing Ralph in a way.
Matt
I think that Jack's speech about using a littlun for killing reflects his attitude towards the littluns in the tribe. I think that it is possible that Jack is thinking of killing a littlun because whenever they are talking to him in the assemblies, he always tells them to "shut up" or "be quiet". He doesn't take the time to listen to their views or what is troubling them. This also shows how savage Jack has become, to the point where he does not care about the welfare of the others in his tribe. He is supposed to be one of the leaders, along with Ralph, but he does not play the role very well in my opinion unless it is in the middle of the hunt, where he is most like a leader.
I think that everyone laughing along with Jack shows how they are either all becoming more and more savage every day, or that they are simply influenced by Jack's authority during the hunt. They have accepted Jack as the leader ever since the first pig was killed because the majority of the people with them at this point are the hunters, who are on Jack's side. They see Jack as the leader, and they strive to satisfy him. Even Ralph gets pulled into the wild killing craze. He keeps repeating that he hit the boar, as if he wants someone to notice his achievement. Every person on the island has a savage side to them, just like everyone else in the world. I think this is when Ralph's becomes most clear, when he is in the heat of the hunt. This shows Jack's influence on everyone, but it only occurs when they are out hunting pig.
Question
"I hit him! The spear stuck in his-"
"The boar was floundering..."
"I hit him', said Ralph again, 'and the spear stuck in a bit.'"
"He felt the need of witnesses."
"Didn't you see me?"
Why does Ralph feel it is so important for the others to witness his sticking the boar? Does this show anything about Ralph's state? Do you think that being on a hunt with Jack has shown Ralph a bit of insight into why Jack is the way he is towards pigs? What does killing or attacking a pig symbolize? Do Ralph's actions foreshadow anything about what he will become in the future chapters?
james: I think Golding used heat to emphasize the dirty, distasteful, grimy state the boys are in, and how they don’t mind it. It emphasizes their primitive state – how they’re all so dirty and sweaty, but run about like little beasts anyways.
Helen,
I think Ralph realized what he’d done after the game. He felt that the game had gone a little bit too far and he felt a bit scared and sorry. He realizes that hunting has an effect to lure you into it and brings out a lust to kill.
“’Just a game,’ said Ralph uneasily. ‘I got jolly badly hurt at rugger once.’
We ought to have a drum,’ said Maurice, ‘then we could do it properly.’
Ralph looked at him.
‘How properly?’” pg. 115
I think Ralph comes back to his sense after they drop Robert and is scared of how crazy people get when they play games like this. He surprised himself at how crazy he was when he plays the game. I think he’ll make sure to control himself next time.
jasper: Yes, I think it foreshadows. Look how low Ralph has to stoop. Repeating over and over again to prove his power as a leader? He almost had no real influence left! Ralph was just striving for recgonition as a real leader, one who can hunt too. He lacked that quality, and now that he'd hit the boar right on the muzzle, of course he wants people to know.
I'm not sure about the insight bit, but I think that the desire to hunt and successfully kill an animal is part of human nature. Man has/wants to have a power over nature. Golding was just showing that anyone can succumb.
After reading chapter 7, it seems to me that Ralph was acting all along in the previous chapters. When the boys start hunting for the boar, Ralph seems really excited and says “I hit him all right. The spear stuck in. I wounded him!” Ralph was excited about wounding the boar! That contradicts with all the things he mentioned before about being civilized and not being savages and hunting. I think from this point, he has already lost the power. He has found out that hunting isn’t as bad as he thought, and Jack is smart, he got Ralph into the trap. It is really clear that Jack holds the power now.
When Jack mentioned about having a littlun be in the game they were playing (with Robert being the boar and the boys trying to kill him and they go overboard) and the boys laughed. I didn’t think that Jack was joking even thought it seemed like the boys thought he was joking. Jack seems like the kind of person who would really do that, because he is violent and doesn’t really care about the littluns.
Question: Why is Ralph so vulnerable now? Why did he decide to hunt?
Why did Ralph recall his memory? He had a flashback about his Mom and Dad. It says on page 112, starting from the second paragraph. Is he still trying to remember his past life where he was more civilized? Later in the chapter, he started to adopt Jack's violent activites. Why?
After reading the chapter, I wonder how important Piggy is to Ralph as he considers him an important friend because he actually worries about him and sent someone to inform him that they would be staying overnight “We can’t leave the littleuns alone with Piggy. Not all night.” “Someone’s got to go across the island and tell Piggy we’ll be back after dark.” (117) But going back to tell Piggy would hinder their search to find the beast, so he basically needs to decide between friendship and adventure. In the end he chose for adventure as he refused to go back to Piggy. Instead, he continued with Jack their adventure. I think that this might be a critical point in the story as it showed that Ralph cared more about adventuring than friendship.
Question: How important is Piggy to Ralph?
Haley: I agree with Chuni. I also think that Ralph is still looking forward to get rescued, but he is also fond of some savagery.
Chuni: Yes I do believe so. I think the brute ocean symbolizes Jack and the quiet lagoon symbolizes Ralph. I think the author is using contrasts between the two water bodies to point out their difference.
Why did Ralph accept the challenge? Is it to prove his ability? Is he afraid of Jack?
To Robert:
I think when Ralph joined their pig hunt; he had significantly changed. Then, after the hunt, he chanted and sang with Jack and his crew. I think this is important because it tells us that Jack is taking a big lead in the power struggle between him and Ralph. Later, as Robert had said, when Ralph entered Jack’s little stage show and “forgot that they were [only] playing a game and tried to kill Robert as if he was a pig”, it symbolizes that Ralph had changed completely: from being a civilized elegant self to a completely new mean and savage face.
To me, I think Ralph’s "desire to squeeze and hurt" foreshadows that one day; he would be as savage as Jack is now today and start killing people without his own consciousness knowing. When Ralph said that he now understood why hunting pig is so addicting, it somehow meant that he himself is addicted to it too: that was why he couldn’t stop and realized that the drama was just a little game played by themselves.
Question:
Do you think that Ralph would remain as what he is now: savage and without discipline, or would be change back to his original self: civilized and elegant.
Fernando:
Actually instead of gaining power I feel that when Ralph decided to join Jack in all the hunting games, he himself is actually succumbing to Jack’s leadership. After all Jack was the one that wanted hunting while Ralph wasn’t okay with doing just that. However right now he has started to actually feel the excitement of the hunt and this does not bode well.
In the previous chapters Ralph was unsatisfied with how Jack always went hunting and as a leader he wanted everyone to work more on shelters and building fires. Now that he actually enjoys hunting he is basically revealing his vulnerability as a leader.
“I hit him! The spear stuck in---“Now they came, unexpectedly, to an open space by the sea. Jack cast about on the bare rock and looked anxious. “He’s gone.” “I hit him,” said Ralph again, “and the spear stuck in a bit.” He felt the need of witnesses. “Didn’t you see me?”
Also if Ralph got so absorbed into hunting this easily then that means it will be much easier for the other much younger children to fall into this game. If someone as intellectual as Ralph falling for Jack’s game then that means it will be much easier for all the others to go for it. This shows that not only is Ralph losing his power as a leader but it’s also showing his weakness as a leader. It’s like running into your enemy’s fortress, you’re playing right into their hands if you do this and that is exactly what Ralph’s current position is.
Albert: I think littluns are becoming forgotten. In this chapter, Ralph didn't inform Piggy that they'd come back late. To me, Piggy is considered a littlun, because he's vulnerable and easily attacked. I think the littluns are just like the pigs that Jack hunts--they're both vulnerable and picked on.
Does Piggy represent the pigs that are hunted for food? Their names are the same. Do pigs symbolize something? Do they symbolize weakness that people would pick on?
Kimberly: I think that Ralph decided to hunt because he wanted to get his power back by making the kids respect him again. He knows that Jack is a good hunter, so if he surpasses him, he would be the best of the group.
Tereasa: I think Ralph accepted the challenge to see if hunting is that interesting, and to prove that he still has a side of him that isn't just all about the fire. It might be to prove his ability to tell the others that he has that ability to hunt.
to ty: i think that Ralph is not choosing, on purpose, adventure over friend. I think its rather that he needed to reclaim his power as chief. If he said that he was going to go back, the hunters would probably have thought him weak, and despised him, thus, causing them to disobey him as a leader. So going on the adventure was more of a "i need to get my power back from jack" thing. Not adventure over friendship.
Jasmine: I think Piggy does represent the pigs hunted for food, because Piggy is always picked on Jack. It’s the same with the pigs, the pigs are also being hunted by Jack which makes Piggy and the pigs on the same level that Jack treats them. And yes they do symbolize weakness that people would pick on.
Kimberly: I think Ralph wants to hunt, because he wants to belong. Everyone supports Jack, which makes Ralph want to go with the flow. He thinks that hunting is uncivilized and bad, but now does it as if it was a fun game. I think it is like smoking. People think smoking is bad, but when they start smoking, they get addicted to it and think it's fun.
“Now it was Ralph’s turn to flush but he spoke despairingly, out of the new understanding that Piggy had given him.
‘Why do you hate me?’
The boys stirred uneasily, as though something indecent had been said. The silence lengthened.” William Golding Lord of the Flies page 118
Golding talks about “the new understanding that Piggy had given [Ralph].” What is it? Why does Ralph ask Jack this question? Do you think that their companionship and tolerance of each other has split to the point of no return?
In Chapter 7, Ralph’s unexpected attitude and reaction surprisedme. Is the once serious Ralph gone?
Ralph talked on, excitedly.
“I hit him all right. The spear struck in. I wounded him!”
He sunned himself in their new respect and felt that hunting was good after all.
“I walloped him properly. That was the beast, I think!”
Maybe we were wrong about Jack all along, Ralph was the arrogant
one. He wouldn’t believe Jack that hunting was a good thing. This
section I think also shows how everybody, now including Ralph, are now really into savagery:
“Ow! Stop it! You’re hurting!”
“Hold him!”
They got his arms and legs. Ralph, carried away by a sudden thick
excitement, grabbed Eric’s spear and jabbed Robert with it.
“Kill him! Kill him!
They said “That was a good game” so they were only acting right? But it seemed like they were physically try to hurt others! Ususally it was only
Jack who teased and picked on people, but I think they realized that
they don’t have anything to be afraid of. No parents and no laws to restrain their temptation to harm.
Kimberly~Why is Ralph so vulnerable now? Why did he decide to hunt?
I don't think he's vulnerable but just has this urge to get attention from the others. Like you said, he was losing power to Jack, maybe he's trying to copy Jack's style of leading? I think he decided to hunt because there aren't any actual restrictions.
Question~
"He thought of the littluns and Piggy. Vividly he imagined piggy by himself huddled in a shelter that was silent except for the sounds of nightmar. We cant leave the littluns alone with piggy. not all night. THe other boys said nothing but stood round, watching him."
-pg117
Is Ralph the only one that cares about the littluns and piggy?
(Page 115) “You want a real pig,” said Robert, still caressing his rump, “because you’ve got to kill him.”
“Use a littleun,” said Jack, and everybody laughed.
What does this symbolize? Is Jack really thinking to kill a littleun? What does this show of his thoughts about the littleuns? Everybody laughs along with Jack. Are they are savages as well?
This symbolizes the powerless of the littleuns, which Jack loves to abuse, like an old brother that is mean to his younger one. Jack has never showed that he cared for the young ones, and basically showed the strong rules, the weak follow. Jack wouldn't really kill a young one. He just likes to make fun of them, and act as the big boss and command them around like slaves. As a matter of fact, Jack actually needs them for striking fear, and for gathering crowds in support of the meat that he hunts. He likes the feeling of being the boss, ever since the beginning of the book, where he battles Ralph for the leader of the boys. The boys that are laughing along with Jack aren't savages. They are merely fitting into the group, and Jack is somewhat the leader on this hunt. It is like when a famous guy makes a derogatory joke and all those people laugh along, it doesn't mean that they're really evil, but are just trying to be part of the group. The boys aren't savages yet.
My question:
Why did the boys go crazy when Robert was acting as the pig? They knew that Robert would get hurt if they jabbed him like that, but why did they jab him until he cried out? Is this something to do with losing identity or are they really turning into savages?
Matthew: I don’t think Jack cares about the smaller kids at all. He sees them as a WHOLE, not as individual people. Losing a couple of them will be no problem, as long as the group “littluns” still exist. I don’t think he means to kill a littlun here, but it shows that he thinks of them as expendable and disposable objects. The other “biguns” do not realize the cruelty of this situation yet, but they don’t really care about the little kids either.
Jasmine,
Does Piggy represent the pigs that are hunted for food? Their names are the same. Do pigs symbolize something? Do they symbolize weakness that people would pick on?
I think Piggy and the pigs on the island are, in a sense, the same. Piggy is basically a reject among the boys, because he can't help with anything physically. All he can do is act smart and complain. Pigs on the island are hunted of Jack and the boys for food. Piggy and the pigs symbolize the bottom, or the losers. Piggy is at the bottom of the social pyramid, and pigs are basically at the bottom of the boys' food chain.
On page 111, Simon says to Ralph, "You'll get back to where you came from." Does this mean that Ralph will get his power over the boys back? Or does it mean that Simon thinks Ralph will get rescued? If so, why does he use "you" instead of "we?" Is he predicting that everyone will die on the island except for Ralph?
Response to matt: “What does this symbolize? Is Jack really thinking to kill a littleun? What does this show of his thoughts about the littleuns? Everybody laughs along with Jack. Are they are savages as well?”
I think this symbolizes the diminishing conscious of everyone, and the lack of civilization amongst the group. I don’t think that Jack is really serious about killing a littleun, he’s just doing these stuff because he’s all hyped up and doesn’t like littleuns, so chooses to toy with them. This shows that he despises the littleuns, and thinks that they’re a burden to the big kids. Just like how older siblings sometimes despise their younger siblings. I think the reason for their laughter might be peer pressure from Jack, or, it could be that as time passes, the lack of civilization has all eroded their minds.
My response:
(pg.115)
“Jacks arm came down; the heaving circle cheered and made pig-dying noises. Then they lay quiet, panting, listening to Roberts frightened snivels…….”that was a good game.”
To me, this particular part of the chapter was really shocking. At first, when I read it, I was like, “ ok…? I guess they’re just playing around and being wild.” But after reading the paragraph the second time, I was like, “Hold up! They had gone too far with this whole hunting urge.” The description was…sort of like déjà vu, I guess, because it made me think of a particular scene in a movie about elementary school. In the movie, a bunch of bullies in the school form a circle and give one little kid a major wedgie during recess, and because everyone’s so intimidated by the bully, nobody speaks up and tells them that its wrong. I think that’s what happened to Robert. Everyone was so crazy and hyper, that they forget that what they’re doing is wrong, even if it was just a game.
So…..my question is……Are there any specific examples of peer pressure so far in the novel? As in…..does nobody dare to speak up to Jack or Ralph?
KK :
I think the adrenaline that is pumped into him upon hunting a pig causes him to be over excited. Maybe he was just overjoyed to have something new and exciting happen in his comparitively dull life in the past few week(?)island. The question now is - will he turn savage like Jack because of the hunting? (refer to my question/ response below)
Question/ Response :
"Ralph was full of fright and apprehension and pride. 'I Hit him! The spear stuck in -'" (pg. 113)
Why is Ralph so excited about killing pigs now. Earlier, he blamed Jack for only thinking about pig all day. Yet, when he finally hunts a pig, is so excited, he can't stop telling everyone he wounded a pig. "'I hit him,' said Ralph again, 'and the spear stuck in a bit.' He felt the need of witnesses...Ralph talked on excitedly. " I hint him all right, The spear stuck in. i wounded him!"
Now, here's my question - Is Ralph changing? Is he becoming one of the hunters who will eventually end up like Jack? A bloodthirsty savage that loves to kill. Or will he remain the same as he is, and he was just over-reacting when he killed a pig because he hasn't had that sort of excitement for a while.
Personally, I think Ralph won't become a savage like Jack because of the history he has had with Jack. They never really got along before. The only reason they worked together was so that they could benefit each other in survival. Also, if Ralph wants to get rescued, he won't let himself turn into a savage who thinks about killing all day.
What does it mean by when Simon said, “ No, I’m not. I just think that you’ll get back all right.” What does it mean by that? Does Simon think that he can be all right? Why does he say this? Does he know that something bad is going to happen on him? Or what?
“We will kill.” – Jack, page 116
This quote shows a very strong feeling of Jack. For me Jack is a character that is unpredictable, he changes a lot. Is it because of power struggle between Ralph or the pride of a hunter? In the beginning, when the twins saw the beast, Jack said he is scared, but now he says let’s kill it? Why? To carefully think about it, we can realize that he still wants the power from Ralph, he still wants to be the chief.
“Who went first on the Castle Rock” – Ralph, page 119
On the other hand, Ralph still wants to be the chief, so that time he was trying to act very brave, so now he says this to Jack.
Obviously, in this chapter there are a lot of competitive things going on, between Ralph and Jack. They both want to be the chief, where the power struggle comes in the story. Not only these but we can also see that they are becoming like a real savages, for example, “They were dirty, not with the spectacular dirt boys who have fallen into mud or been brought down hard in a rainy day. Not one of them was an obvious subject for a shower, and yet – hair, much too long, tangled here and there, knotted round a dead leaf or a twig: faces cleaned fairly well by the process of eating and sweating but marked in the less accessible angles with a kind of shadow; clothes, worn away, stiff like his own sweat, put on, not for decorum or comfort but out of custom; the skin of the body, scurfy with brine-“. So in this long sentence we can see that they are, not only acting, but looking like savages.
No responses to others in my head yet, so stay tuned.
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My response:
I couldn’t really figure much out during the chapter. Most of the content was pretty straightforward so I didn’t have much a problem. There wasn’t too much of anything exciting so I just read and read, taking things in like sponge to water, so I’ve nothing much to say about. Then again, the idea of combining Sam and Eric seems to become more and more noticeable. Now, it’s not just the characters, but also the author is calling them as one: “Samneric”. It’s kind of freaky and I don’t seem to know why. I’ve heard some say it’s just because they’re twins. Others have suggested that it is because of savageness. I think a proper combo of these two ideas would be that the twins are so unified, that it’s as if they’ve become one, and it is enforced by savageness because thoughts are distorted.
What struck me most heavy was when Jack suggested using a little boy when they simulate their next chase after the boar in the short phrase “Use a littlun.” Everybody laughed when he said it. I think this is truly a sign of their savageness. I mean seriously! Using a little child as a play toy when he could be seriously frightened and injured?! You have got to be kidding with me…
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“Simon pushed his way to Ralph’s elbow. “I’ll go if you like. I don’t mind, honestly.” Before Ralph had time to reply, he smiled quickly, turned and climbed into the forest.”(117) Why does Simon volunteer to go back by himself? Does it hint that he may know the island more than Jack, who claimed to have explored almost every corner? After all Jack does not know where Simon’s secret place is.
STEVEN:
I think that Simon volunteered to go and tell Piggy alone, was because that he realized that no one else would do it. Simon seems to like Ralph, which is probably why he is willing to volunteer and go alone. Some evidence of Simon liking Ralph can be seen in the end of chapter five, when the meeting was departed. “Piggy’s right, Ralph. There’s you and Jack. Go on being chief.”(94)
Another possibility of why Simon volunteered to go was because that he was afraid of the beast. ‘“I’ll go if you like. I don’t mind, honestly.” Before Ralph had time to reply, he smiled quickly, turned and climbed into the forest.’(117)
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Ralph started daydreaming about home when he was hunting(112), does this mean anything?
"... and Ralph was content to follow Jack along it." (page 109)
"Ralph leaned against a tree and at once the daydreams came swarming up. Jack was in charge of the hunt and there would be time to get to the mountain-" (page 112)
"Once more Jack led them along..." (page 116)
Do you think there is a part of Ralph that secretly wants Jack to be leader? I think the second quote reveals that as Jack leads their group on the hunt, Ralph is enjoying the relaxation as he daydreams. But he also tries very hard to keep his rank.
Response to Haly:
In Chapter 7, Ralph is turning more savage and barbaric. I think Ralph is a hypocrite, because he used to despise Jack and his choir hunting pigs and not building huts, however he feels the excitement of killing a live animal. Ralph is turning more savage after he kills the boar, because he enjoys the superiority and power over the vulnerability of the boar. I believe Ralph is succumbing to Jack’s side. (pg113) He sunned himself in their new respect and felt that hunting was good after all. Ralph also reiterates that he killed the boar and he wounded it.
Question: In page 112, Ralph had a flashback back to his original life. What does this has to do to the present Ralph?
Reply to Allen: I think Jack does not want to kill a little one. I think he was just making a joke that had included his opinion on the littleuns. “Use a littleun,” said Jack, and everybody laughed”(115) I think this shows that the biguns do not care about the little ones and yes, to some extent, also reveals that they are savages. I also think that this laughing symbolized how Jack was a funny leader and fulfills people’s desires.
Bess: I don't think that Ralph is turning savage or uncivilized. Neither is he giving in to Jack. I think he just got caught up in the moment; remember he still is a kid and still wants to have fun. I think that he is just showing his childish side by trying to have the most fun he could possibly have. However, this may show that Ralph will become savage in the future unless they get saved. This may be a little piece of what Ralph is going to be like when he is savage.
fernando: I agree with the part you said about Ralph wanting to have civilized people around him. And it seems that the other boys are dirty and savages. But I don't think Ralph was araid to hunt, its just his first time to do it. About your question I think he is going to get his power back because eventually the children will want to be rescued from the island.
Do you think Ralph has already become a savage? Or is he going to turn into one soon? Or do u think he will still stay the same?
Helen: I think that moment in which Ralph lost himself to the thrill of hunting might have been the beginning of his slow transformation into a savage. It also might have been a temporary thing, but the readers now know that Ralph is also vulnerable to the urge to hunt. Though, despite that, he can recover quickly. After the author writes, "'Use a littlun,' said Jack, and everybody laughed." Ralph regains his sense of leadership very quickly. So, at the moment, I still don't know what I think of what he will become, but I hope Ralph stays the same.
“Ralph too was fighting to get near, to get a handful of that brown flesh. The desire to squeeze and hurt was over-mastering.”
In this chapter Ralph really surprised me; this is one of many quotes in this chapter that shows another side of Ralph. Ralph has become in this chapter as savage and as blood lust as Jack. Ralph has also got the desire to hurt to kill like the desire Jack had when he went off hunting. This is the first time that Ralph goes hunting, and he had I think enjoyed it as much as Jack had.
“”I hit him” said Ralph indignantly. “I hit him with my spear, I wounded him.”
He tried for their attention.”
Why did Ralph want to get everyone’s attention?
I think Ralph want to get the attention of the others because he wants to be praised to be appreciated for what he had done. Also if I were Ralph I would really want to kill the beast before Jack to prove that I am as an able leader as him and to win the group’s admiration and respect.
Jack said, “Now---?” Ralph reply for him, “of course”.
For the first time I notice Jack being scare. Scare of the beast that’s on the mountain, and in his tune when he said now, he’s hesitating as well as scare of going back up the mountain and see the creature. Ralph has never seen Jack like this before when they first meet; Jack had always been tough and does not fear of anything. This time is different, he’s afraid of the creature, not the reason it’s big, but rather the face, the appearance of the beast. Maybe because it does not look like a normal animal to them, and that it had big black eyes, which make it sound more like a monster. I believe Jack is scare because, this creature is not in animal like form, but rather a monster looking like. But in the dark, you may be imagining what you are seeing, because looking in the dark give you less detail than in daylight. I think this is what makes Jack afraid. Ralph on the other hand seems calmed and more confident when he sees the beast.
---But I have a question, can you tell if Ralph is scare or not? Does it show in the novel? How is he different from Jack in this kind of situation?
Haley: I don't think that he will become exactly the same as Jack, because of their personality differences, but he will become more like a savage. He finally knows the thrill of hunting, and in doing so he is able to relate to the way Jack feels about hunting. He may enjoy hunting more and value it more than being rescued. I don't think he will give up his plan of being rescued, but he will definitely take more part in hunting.
My question:
On page 114-115, they do some sort of savage-like ritual in which they almost sacrifice one of their own (Robert). Does this foreshadow anything that will happen in the story? Does it foreshadow that they will become actual savages and actually sacrifice human beings in this way? (question is probably not for people who've read ahead :P)
Do you think Ralph has already become a savage? Or is he going to turn into one soon? Or do u think he will still stay the same?
A: No, I don’t believe that Ralph is fully a savage yet, but he has finally met the lure of being savage and hurting other living things, and it obviously attracts him (the hunting…-_-). “’I hit him,’ said Ralph indignantly, ‘I hit him with my spear, I wounded him’
He tried for their attention.” This shows that Ralph, for a few moments, too felt the need to be accepted as a hunter and killer, and used his violent act as a way to prove himself, something he never would have accepted or done at the start of the novel.
As he experiences what the other hunters have felt, the excitement of hunting and newfound respect, he wavers in his determination to be rescued and almost fall onto Jack’s savage path, “He sunned himself in their new respect and felt that hunting was good after all”, which shows that Ralph too is just a boy like the others and is easily affected by the thrill of the hunt, and also has a possibility of turning savage.
However, even though he was caught up in the killing frenzy where they all tried to hurt and even kill Robert, “Ralph too was fighting to get near, to get a handful of that brown, vulnerable flesh . The desire to squeeze and hurt was overmastering.” , he still came back to his senses after Robert was almost seriously hurt, showing that he still has a, if weak, grasp over his emotions and can bring himself back to the path of being rescued, and doesn’t totally succumb to his savage side.
-Wolfblade
Even though Ralph, as leader, was forced to go with Jack to the mountaintop to keep his respect, for awhile, worked together as a team and were united almost supernatural fear of the unknown horror. Does this show a possible renewal of friendship between Jack and Ralph? Or have they drifted apart so much as to be beyond repair?
(im outa here!! nite past pplz.)
In your opinion, why is it so important to Ralph that the other boys know he has wounded the boar with his spear?
What do you think the author might be trying to show as the boys gather in a circle around Robert? Why do you think this is important?
Which three boys decide to head up the mountain? What do the other boys do?
What do they find at the top of the mountain>?>
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